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Why do they not carry?

10K views 151 replies 62 participants last post by  Mike in Texas 
#1 ·
I happened to call my brother and caught him driving to a location about 1.5 hour from his house. Since he has a hands free phone set up in his car, we had a good conversation. I just happened to ask, "What gun do have with you?" Answer: none. He likes to shoot, has several quality pistols, is a lifetime carry permit holder, and is eighty years old. I berated him for making himself so vulnerable - alone, old, and no weapon. We stopped short of a good brotherly cuss fight, but I still worried about his attitude.

Then I realized I have several friends who own but I know do not carry firearms. They have guns at the house, they belong to a range and shoot several times a year or more - but do not carry or even have one stashed in the car when traveling. I don't understand. Spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on guns and not have one when its needed. Smart people who are well informed and know we live in a perilous world. Why?
 
#3 ·
Why would you expect everyone to share the same outlook and views that you do?

Just because the world is a dangerous and scary place for some, doesn’t mean that it actually is, or is for other people.

The very,very, vast majority of people will live their lives and die a natural death without ever needing a firearm.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The very,very, vast majority of people will live their lives and die a natural death without ever needing a firearm.
Similarly, the very, very, vast majority of people will live their lives and die a natural death without ever needing fire insurance, or a fire extinguisher.

The same goes for flood insurance, seat belts, air bags, motorcycle helmets, life jackets, burglar alarms, pepper spray, etc, etc, etc.

By definition the average person has an IQ of only 100.
50% of the population has an IQ below average.

You can't fix stupid . . .
 
#4 ·
I am sure he has his reasons as many people do. Some cannot contemplate taking a life and have accepted that choice and the consequences that go with it. Other gun owners choose to carry and have accepted the consequences of their choice. Both deserve equal respect.
 
#27 ·
Why?
So you believe that those who do not think like you think are stupid?
The rest of your points referring to various insurances are irrelevant and not germane to the conversation, especially insurance that is usually mandated.

The bottom line is that you and everyone here are in the extreme minority. This is a defensive forum, and everyone here is of the same basic mindset.
Do not let that fool you in to believing you are somehow superior in your thinking….
Once again, why?
There is an old saying, "I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong." People don't have to think like me. I would just prefer that they think. And I have found that usually, when they do, and it doesn't come down to matters of taste, that given the same evidence, they tend to come to the same conclusions.
 
#5 ·
Gun writer and trainer Grant Cunningham talks about this. When he flies somewhere to teach a class, he does not bring a gun, he arranges to have one to use for the class. Some people chide him about this. He says unlike some of people, he sees a gun as a tool, not a "talisman against evil." A person should be secure and confident always, no matter how they are armed, or even whether they armed.

I was a Navy officer and travelled all over the world. I had gun in a safe in my bunk room, but I could not carry it in any port calls we made. Sometimes, we were in some dangerous cities. But I never felt paranoid about it. Later, my consulting career had me travelling to anti-gun states a lot so I was not armed during the week. I was fine with it. I always keep my condition yellow SA up and I have some H2H skills. In those cases, I rarely went out at night and I was very conservative with places I went. I never had a problem. My first five years or so of having a CC permit, I kept a gun in the car, but almost never on my person. Same deal.

It was really being on this site, and taking a lot of shooting classes that got me to EDC. I carry first and foremost to exercise my RTKABA, because a right unused will always become a right lost. My goal, whether I am armed or not, is to not get in a fight of any kind. I don't drive aggressively, I ignore people who piss me off and I avoid places that are high risk, but that is not a sacrifice because I generally don't want to go those places anyway. If somehow I can't avoid a fight, my goal is to get out of it without anyone getting severely hurt. But if I am armed and I have no choice, I will not hesitate to shoot someone to the ground.

As bad as things are in this country, it is still extremely rare to have to be in a "combat zone" mentality all the time.
 
#44 ·
I carry first and foremost to exercise my RTKABA, because a right unused will always become a right lost. My goal, whether I am armed or not, is to not get in a fight of any kind. I don't drive aggressively, I ignore people who piss me off and I avoid places that are high risk, but that is not a sacrifice because I generally don't want to go those places anyway. If somehow I can't avoid a fight, my goal is to get out of it without anyone getting severely hurt. But if I am armed and I have no choice, I will not hesitate to shoot someone to the ground.
You took those words right out of my mouth, they describe my situation to a T.

I had a permit and carried a gun often as a young man close to 50 years ago. Somewhere along the line I didn't renew my permit and quit carrying for many years. When all that "social unrest" crap started a couple years ago I decided to get another permit, not because I intended to carry but because I wanted to exercise my right to do so while I still had that right. I thought of it more as a political statement than anything else. Even though I live in a relatively safe area, crime, especially drug related crime has increased a lot recently. I came to the conclusion that there was really no reason not to carry. You know the old "better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it".

Now I'm pretty much the gun nut among my friends as I belong to several clubs and ranges and shoot on average 3-4 times a week. None of my friends carry or even are much into guns, although none of them are anti's. That's their choice and I don't have any problem with it, nor do I try to convert them. I do have a standing offer to one close friend that I will take him to the range sometime and let him shoot any of my guns he wants, but I don't know if he'll ever take me up on it. That same friend knows that I carry all the time and once asked me if I'm armed even when we go to another friends house to watch football. When I said yes I could tell he thought that was a little over the top, but he respects my choice same as I respect his.

I hope I never have to use my gun to defend myself and I'm aware that no one knows for sure what he'd do in such a situation till it happens, but I do believe I could and would shoot someone if I felt I had to in order to defend myself.
 
#6 ·
I have a lot of friends who train, very few of them carry firearms or knives daily, except when they are going to a course, or a place they perceive as a higher threat. Almost none of them practice the skills they pay a lot of money to acquire.

Recent phone conversation: A buddy of mine was in a bar-b-q joint last week when a meth addict came in, cased the joint, left and returned with his partner. He told me the guy creeped him out big time, his alarm bells blaring, he regretted not carrying.
(This is not the first, or even fifth time this guy has had this conversation, yet he was not carrying... still).

When I asked why, he said he though his shirt was too short. Same guy cry-babied about his gun’s grip rubbing his side when we went hiking a little while back. When I asked why now, he stated I only really carry at home and out in the yard where I can tuck my shirt behind the gun. Which tells me, all this time he has been training, he hasn’t taken the time to figure his gear out, and perfect how he carries.

I’ve found a whole lot of people “play” at training and being dangerous, very few are true practitioners. I used to have a small group of friends that travelled to attended classes together. They were doing it for bragging rights, the night before and the night after class was a party for them. I was doing it seeking perfection of my own skills, I now attend courses alone.
 
#7 ·
I have a lot of friends who train, very few of them carry firearms or knives daily, except when they are going to a course, or a place they perceive as a higher threat. Almost none of them practice the skills they pay a lot of money to acquire.

Recent phone conversation: A buddy of mine was in a bar-b-q joint last week when a meth addict came in, cased the joint, left and returned with his partner. He told me the guy creeped him out big time, his alarm bells blaring, he regretted not carrying.
(This is not the first, or even fifth time this guy has had this conversation, yet he was not carrying... still).

When I asked why, he said he though his shirt was too short. Same guy cry-babied about his gun’s grip rubbing his side when we went hiking a little while back. When I asked why now, he stated I only really carry at home and out in the yard where I can tuck my shirt behind the gun. Which tells me, all this time he has been training, he hasn’t taken the time to figure his gear out, and perfect how he carries.

I’ve found a whole lot of people “play” at training and being dangerous, very few are true practitioners. I used to have a small group of friends that travelled to attended classes together. They were doing it for bragging rights, the night before and the night after class was a party for them. I was doing it seeking perfection of my own skills, I now attend courses alone.
You took an Ellifritz class not so long ago. He attracts a fairly talented and astute student clientele. Knowing you to be someone who notices such things, how many of them removed carry guns prior to class, and then re-armed before departing for the day?

I recently attended an armed church security class at TDI with a group of guys who provide that security to their church. They train monthly together, and all did very well in that particular class. Before we departed for the day, the staff asked that everyone re-arm at one location rather than at their vehicles or elsewhere on the grounds. I was the only one who did so.

Most people don't carry regularly, regardless of their level of training enthusiasm.
 
#10 ·
It may seen strange to people who carry guns, but the vast majority of people don't. I bet even the large majority of gun owners don't. A lot of people don't fell the need. Where applicable, a lot of gun owners don't want to go though the bureaucratic hassle of getting a carry license. And carrying a gun can be a PITA in and of itself. On the flip side, the likelihood of ever being in a position of actually needing/using the carry gun is very low. So it just doesn't make sense to a lot of people.
 
#11 ·
@Mike1956, most of the participants were John Murphy’s students, as he hosted Greg. Not sure if he gave the instruction to come unarmed because of the venue, it would shock me if he did. I feel like I said something to Ellifritz in our later correspondence. I’m going to go back and look.
 
#14 ·
The classes I've taken with Greg have all been in very gun friendly venues in Ohio and Indiana. Same story. TDI in West Union, Ohio is encouraging as they come when it comes to full-time carry. Same story. People spend a thousand bucks to take a weekend class, and then put their guns in the range bag for the trip home. Puzzling...
 
#68 ·
Sorry I don’t see this.

Expensive? You have the gun and a mag or two of ammo anyway?

Demanding? ? ? You get up, shower, you put holster in pants, you tighten belt, and off you go.

Difficult? See demanding.

I chastise myself because I forget I’m carrying. It did take the purchase of 3 or 4 holsters and a couple of belts to get it right. But, once I did, it was no different than remembering my wallet and keys.
 
#76 ·
It’s possible that the OP’s brother has a health condition that makes it a challenge to safely carry a firearm, one that he is not ready to share with his brother.

It is also possible that he does not know of many 80 year old guys who have had to shoot their way out of a jam. Priorities change as we age.
I knew an 82 yr old retired Chief of Police that didn't carry. It cost him his life in Billings when stabbed to death by a transient who wanted his car.
 
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#20 ·
We are friends with a couple who are both retired from a big city police department. Neither of them ever had to use their firearms other than qualification during their careers. Neither of them owns a gun.
 
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#21 ·
I was at a SWAT school and the instructor asked who was carrying. About 95% said they were, when he asked what they were carrying a good 90% of those were carrying J frames. I was carrying my 4" model 66.

The attitude is pervasive.
 
#24 ·
Some people just don't want to carry, or have decided not to carry. It's their choice.

Argument: "It's very unlikely I will need a gun, and by having a gun on me, there is a chance of a negligent discharge that will cause serious injury or death, and there is a chance of me being disarmed by an assailant. Thus, I have decided to not carry."

Counter argument: "It's very unlikely I will need it, but if I do, I will have it."

Which argument is more persuasive?

Neither, I say.
 
#28 ·
I got a good lesson at the local police academy when our class went to the range, from an FBI agent who came over to do the revolver class. There we all were, with our brand new 4" and 6" .357s and .38s, and he was carrying a snub-nosed Model 19....after we shot awhile, someone asked him to shoot his "little gun." After amazing us for a few shots, he told us he often gets comments on his snub-nose...but it's not the size of the gun as much as how well the shooter has trained with it. He then turned the M19 upside down and STILL outshot most of us with it. I've never forgotten that lesson. He had mastered that snub...can't blame it on the gun.
 
#32 ·
Lots of good responses here. They're all part of each individuals equation for every action we take, not exclusive to firearms.

People's experiences effect how they see the world, but we all react differently.
Each close call I've lived through uninjured reinforced my need to be prepared. That's why I have a great excess of fire extinguishers and fire alarms in my home.
Also why I check the condition of my tread on my tires habitually and harass my my friends and family to replace worn tires..... and sometimes total strangers in the Publix parking lot.:rolleyes:

Firearms are less straight forward because it requires active work to be prepared. There's no laws about drinking at restaurants, or entering a school if you own a fire extinguisher, nor will you be arrested if you accidentally drive into New Jersey with a loaded fire extinguisher in your trunk. Clearly most people put more value in going about their business without the hassle than the slim possibility a firearm would be needed some time in the future.
 
#33 ·
I happened to call my brother and caught him driving to a location about 1.5 hour from his house. Since he has a hands free phone set up in his car, we had a good conversation. I just happened to ask, "What gun do have with you?" Answer: none. He likes to shoot, has several quality pistols, is a lifetime carry permit holder, and is eighty years old. I berated him for making himself so vulnerable - alone, old, and no weapon. We stopped short of a good brotherly cuss fight, but I still worried about his attitude.

Then I realized I have several friends who own but I know do not carry firearms. They have guns at the house, they belong to a range and shoot several times a year or more - but do not carry or even have one stashed in the car when traveling. I don't understand. Spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on guns and not have one when its needed. Smart people who are well informed and know we live in a perilous world. Why?
He's just 80?? I guess it's a good thing you happened along and berated him for being vulnerable. He might not have made it to age 81. .:rolleyes:
 
#36 ·
Most "type A" personalities believe they are superior and ALWAYS right about everything, the police profession is saturated with this mind-set. Their perception is that their way of thinking is correct and that everyone else is inferior. It doesn't mean they are right of course, it's just their perception of the world.
 
#70 · (Edited)
Could you possibly be confusing type A with Narcissism? I’ve know a lot of type A people (high energy, go getters) and none of them were an ass, yet a few were and those also carried the comorbidity of narcissism and this was actually the cause of the bad attitude, or the holier than others attitude against people that usually were smarter but that didn’t think like they thought?

Just a thought! 😊


Edited to add to the OP: I carry most all the time, not to bed but it’s within arms length and there are three large capable dogs at my feet - and then there is my husband that is also armed.

For me, It’s 100% safety! I cannot outrun anyone or a critter, I’m small and not very strong.

For me personally it’s an equalizer and I’ve left the house many times without my purse or phone but always have at least one of my guns!
 
#37 ·
I also have been amazed at the very high percent of people who have carry permits and even shoot more or less regularly but who do not carry. Some few that I know fairly well have examined their conscience and honestly feel they could never shoot another person. That is a decision each person must make.

When I got my carry permit it was with the full intention of carrying a gun, which I did as soon as I had enough training and competition experience to feel strongly that I could get my gun out and in action before I would be disarmed. That took a while, but I've been carrying ever since. Until NOW after this surgery. I can carry OWB for short periods of time, but can't wear any of my clothes that actually fit me, and my reflexes are not back to normal, so I am going out and about locally in very loose clothing without a gun. I do not feel "right" doing that and fully intend to get back to carrying all the time at home and away (where legal). In the meantime, God is my protector.

Funny thing about that: God is ALWAYS my protector. To assist Him in my humble earthly way, most of the time for over 20 years now I have been armed in the unlikely event that I might need to use that gun to save my life or the life of someone I care deeply about.
 
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