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It's also not uncommon for police to wait more than an hour before entering a shooting situation. Even a minute can seem like forever in a situation like this.

One of the people in the Orlando shooting said she laid on the floor and played dead for over 2 hours.
 

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Murphy's laws of combat.

1.Anything you do can get you killed including doing nothing.

.........so you may as well do something.

Murphy was a grunt.
 

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One point that needs to be brought out in that chart. In the Pulse nightclub there was a police presence before the gunfire started.

I know I'll probably get flamed for this, and I have total respect for police and the position they find themselves in and have known officers that ran to the fight thinking of others more than themselves. But in this case the officer on the scene was the first to confront the BG before he even got to the patrons, and decided it was time to retreat. His retreat cost 49 people their lives and another 53 shot.

Moral of the story, if you don't, or can't as in the case in Florida protect yourself when the SHTF, don't bet your life on the police.
 

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No flame here. Someone was hired to provide protection and committed an epic fail... Another good reason why responsible citizens should be armed and ready... Went to the range yesterday and for some motivational reason, short much better than usual...
 

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Well, says much about those particular incidents, at least.

One might say they're cherry-picked to make the point. There have been, of course, thousands of situations since ~1991 in which a comparison could be made. Who knows what the numbers would look like, then, if all known examples of deadly threats like that were statistically compared. (Might well have already been done; haven't seen it, if it has.)
 

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Well, says much about those particular incidents, at least.

One might say they're cherry-picked to make the point. There have been, of course, thousands of situations since ~1991 in which a comparison could be made. Who knows what the numbers would look like, then, if all known examples of deadly threats like that were statistically compared. (Might well have already been done; haven't seen it, if it has.)
Agreed. The data presented in the OP's link couldn't be much more useless or misleading. Cherry-picked to support a conclusion they wanted to make.
 

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Agreed. The data presented in the OP's link couldn't be much more useless or misleading. Cherry-picked to support a conclusion they wanted to make.
It'd be far more interesting, and relevant, to have a statistically valid study be done on a representative sample versus a meaningful "control" group, in which an exhaustive list of deadly-threat situations in the past ~30+ years is evaluated. Don't know if the "control" element would be possible, but then there's not much difference between venue X or Y or Z, when it comes to the relative ability of a random population of people to defend themselves or to be slaughtered. I'm sure a pretty nice study could be done, with statistically-relevant results on which contributing factors explain which portion of the risk and result.
 

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Well, says much about those particular incidents, at least.

One might say they're cherry-picked to make the point. There have been, of course, thousands of situations since ~1991 in which a comparison could be made. Who knows what the numbers would look like, then, if all known examples of deadly threats like that were statistically compared. (Might well have already been done; haven't seen it, if it has.)
The "free press' is rarely about being objective. There's always a targeted market via an agenda... always....
 

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I'll accept it at face value and not run a Scopes-type fact check ... too many dates, locations and facts (factoids?). Personally, I love the premise and would hope to either achieve success (stop the violence) or die in the process. As a 65-year-old man, I've led a very interesting and fulfilling life and this would not be a bad way to go out, rather than cancer or some other horrid disease. I'd rather die trying ...
 

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My County Sheriff and Police Chief told me that, "from the time 911 is called until the time that Law Enforcement arrives on the scene, I am on my own." The "period" at the end of their statement spoke the loudest.
 

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Well, says much about those particular incidents, at least.

One might say they're cherry-picked to make the point. There have been, of course, thousands of situations since ~1991 in which a comparison could be made. Who knows what the numbers would look like, then, if all known examples of deadly threats like that were statistically compared. (Might well have already been done; haven't seen it, if it has.)
If there have been thousands of comparable events it shouldn't be any problem to come up with a few dozen examples.
 

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Ok can you imagine if you are a cwp holder and because of the law you leave your gun in the trunk and this happens...........:blink:
 
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If there have been thousands of comparable events it shouldn't be any problem to come up with a few dozen examples.
Yup.

Though, most folks appreciate people have only limited time, thus getting a point across can be a bear when ADHD raises its head. (The "USA Today syndrome" or whatever folks want to call it.)

Myself, I'd just rather see a suitable study that's statistically justifiable in its relevance. Which essentially means that selecting dozen or two incidents of maximal damage doesn't allow such evaluation. Choosing situations in which a person had every means of taking out multiple victims would be the sample population, if done right, then comparing those where it seemingly got cut short, absolutely did get cut short (by whomever), versus where it went on and on until the idiot opted to withdraw. Much more useful information. Simply pointing to the "headline" situations over the past 20 years doesn't buy us much.
 

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Experts agree - waiting costs lives.

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Did a Delay in Police Response Give Shooter More Time? - ABC News

As the largest mass shooting in modern U.S. history began to unfold, an off-duty police officer working at a gay nightclub exchanged gunfire with the suspect. But three hours passed before a SWAT team stormed the building and brought the attack to an end.


The decision by law enforcement to hold off on entering the Pulse club — where more than 100 people were shot, 49 of them killed — immediately raised questions among experts in police tactics. They said the lessons learned from other mass shootings show that officers must get inside swiftly — even at great risk — to stop the threat and save lives.

"We live in a different world. And action beats inaction 100 percent of the time," said Chris Grollnek, an expert on active-shooter tactics and a retired police officer and SWAT team member.
 

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Experts agree - waiting costs lives.

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Did a Delay in Police Response Give Shooter More Time? - ABC News

As the largest mass shooting in modern U.S. history began to unfold, an off-duty police officer working at a gay nightclub exchanged gunfire with the suspect. But three hours passed before a SWAT team stormed the building and brought the attack to an end.


The decision by law enforcement to hold off on entering the Pulse club — where more than 100 people were shot, 49 of them killed — immediately raised questions among experts in police tactics. They said the lessons learned from other mass shootings show that officers must get inside swiftly — even at great risk — to stop the threat and save lives.

"We live in a different world. And action beats inaction 100 percent of the time," said Chris Grollnek, an expert on active-shooter tactics and a retired police officer and SWAT team member.
There are a lot of "experts" who can't wait to chime in after an event to tell us how much they know. Problem is....they weren't there and truly have no clue. They just want a microphone and someone who will listen to them ramble. Their opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them.
 

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Not really debateable. Anything LE is callled in for is over by the time they arrive. Not their fault, just the way it is.

No LEO shouldnt go barrelling in to an active shooter situation before they are ready. And LE big wigs chest pounding aside, they arent going to by and large regardless of dept policy.
I have no problem with any of that.

I have a problem with PD cheifs SAYING they are going to run in first thing when it aint gonna happen. Because that only gives folks a false sense they can depend on anyone but themselves in such situations and hinders the effort to let them arm thrmselves , wherever, to defend themselves.
 
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