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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I own an HK45c handgun which has a 3.9 inch barrel and use this handgun for protecting my family. I have purchased Federal's HST-230+p which has aprox. 450 ft.lbs. of energy and travels at aprox. 950 ft. per sec. I have also purchased Doubletaps-185+p which has aprox. 550ft.lbs. of energy and travels out of my HK45c at 1175 ft. per sec..
I know shot placement is vital-thats why I'm at our local range twice a month but I also know that in a shooting situation where you might not get ideal shot placement you have to count on what bullet will do the most tissue damage! My questions are does having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster! And number two question:Out of the fore-mentioned rounds -which would you pick for home defense & why?
Thank-You for your time!
 

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Muzzle energy alone will not, but with proper bullet construction for the job at hand combined with the proper velocity will. High velocity and a bullet that blows up on impact won't help much. Either one of the two bullets you picked will work just fine. I would make my choice based in reliability in my fire arm and point of impact if I had fixed sights.
 

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Large differences in muzzle energy do not translate into large differences on the target downrange. A lot has to do with bullet design and what it hits.

In my .45s I shy away from +Ps, since I get back on target faster with standard-pressure rounds and my accuracy is usually better.
 

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It is not that muzzle energy does not matter, but it is not the be all end all answer. What you need is the round that dumps the most energy in the target and still allows you to fire your weapon accurately and quickly. Six million pound feet of energy isn't going to stop a predator unless that energy is actually delivered to it. And if I miss with my massive recoil mega magnum and it takes me five or ten seconds to get my sights aligned again, am I better off than I would have been putting ten rounds of .22 long rifle into my target?
Or if I hit my target and the round keeps on going (through and through) am I getting any benefit from that energy?

After the infamous Miami shootout the FBI decided the 10mm was their "perfect" handgun round. Then they couldn't get enough agents to qualify with their new weapons. Their downloaded round became the .40 Smith and Wesson. More isn't always better.
 

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Shot placement is king; penetration to the vitals is queen.

"Energy dump" is only a factor at rifle bullet velocities, where the temporary stretch cavity is so violent and fast that permanent wounding can result. At handgun velocities, "energy dump" is not a factor in terminal effect.

If both those rounds feed reliably and penetrate at least 12 inches, then choose the one with the least recoil and muzzle flip for faster follow-up shots.
 

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So 10thmtn are you saying that if these jello tests are correct the .45ACP is no more effective than the .22 long rifle or a .32 ACP?
Various .45ACP JHPs (test 2)
230 grain Winchester SXT
Walther P22 versus ballistic gelatin block
Various .32ACP (Kel-Tec P32)

Most of the .22 and .32 loads make the magical twelve inches.
I don't believe he was saying that at all.

A consistent penetration of 12" is the recognized standard for a self defense round. This allows it to reach to the vital organs. A round such as the Winchester RA45T opening up to .65/70 caliber while penetrating to this depth is going to destroy more tissue and incapacitate the vital organs much better and faster than a .22/.32.
 

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Ok Sgb, what is your take on this? What do you believe is the key, total wound channel volume? Would you say that a 85 grain 7.62x25 Tokarev round that expands to .460 with a twelve inch plus wound channel would be more effective than .45 hard ball that penetrates to the same depth?
Are we all carrying more gun than we should?
 

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The "key" is shot placement and rapid repeated shot placement.

Shot placement trumps all, provided the round meets a minimum power floor (say, just for the sake of argument, .380 and up).
 

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The things that matter are:
Shot placement, penetration, cool gun. In that order. Shot placement is by far the most important.
 

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Ok Sgb, what is your take on this? What do you believe is the key, total wound channel volume? Would you say that a 85 grain 7.62x25 Tokarev round that expands to .460 with a twelve inch plus wound channel would be more effective than .45 hard ball that penetrates to the same depth?
Are we all carrying more gun than we should?
You have a 7.62 X 25 round that penetrates 12" and expands to .460?
 

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What I am saying is that a pistol bullet generally only disrupts what tissue it actually touches. This is unlike a rifle bullet, which can cause permanent tissue damage due to the very violent nature of the bullet's temporary stretch cavity. Pistol bullets just don't have the velocity to do this.

So, with a pistol, you want to hit a vital area (high chest, spine, or brain). This means shot placement, and penetration (remember the bullet may need to pass through the forearms or hands before even getting to the chest - an attacker will usually have his hands and arms outstretched towards you, and may attempt to shield himself).

Don't count on one pistol bullet doing the job - that means you need to choose a system (gun and cartridge) that will allow fast follow-up shots. It also means you need to balance the "power" of each individual bullet, with the need to carry enough bullets to deal with threats that refuse to go down just because you shot them - and their buddies.

A larger bullet diameter does a bit more damage, but that advantage comes at the cost of reduced mag capacity, higher ammo costs, and more recoil - which means slower follow-up shots (all else being equal). The math I've seen, for example, shows that a .45 has a 4-7% chance of hitting something vital that a 9mm will just barely miss. That small advantage is not worth the systemic trade-offs, IMHO.

So yes, lots of folks are carrying "more gun" than they need. For me, I see no reason to go higher than 9mm for most defensive purposes. YMMV.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
What I am saying is that a pistol bullet generally only disrupts what tissue it actually touches. This is unlike a rifle bullet, which can cause permanent tissue damage due to the very violent nature of the bullet's temporary stretch cavity. Pistol bullets just don't have the velocity to do this.

So, with a pistol, you want to hit a vital area (high chest, spine, or brain). This means shot placement, and penetration (remember the bullet may need to pass through the forearms or hands before even getting to the chest - an attacker will usually have his hands and arms outstretched towards you, and may attempt to shield himself).

Don't count on one pistol bullet doing the job - that means you need to choose a system (gun and cartridge) that will allow fast follow-up shots. It also means you need to balance the "power" of each individual bullet, with the need to carry enough bullets to deal with threats that refuse to go down just because you shot them - and their buddies.

A larger bullet diameter does a bit more damage, but that advantage comes at the cost of reduced mag capacity, higher ammo costs, and more recoil - which means slower follow-up shots (all else being equal). The math I've seen, for example, shows that a .45 has a 4-7% chance of hitting something vital that a 9mm will just barely miss. That small advantage is not worth the systemic trade-offs, IMHO.

So yes, lots of folks are carrying "more gun" than they need. For me, I see no reason to go higher than 9mm for most defensive purposes. YMMV.

I agreed with everything you posted except:
While in the USMC I had a couple of situations where 1-2 full metal jacket rounds in 45 caliber- stopped a threat! And number 2--myself and other Marines practiced with both .45 caliber & 9mm caliber handguns and found that with enough practice my fellow Marines and myself had follow-up shots with 45 caliber handguns that were just as fast as 9mm. handguns.
Most home situations you are extremely lucky if you can fire one round! I am not fighting gang warfare to need 15 rounds ! I am extremely accurate with my 45 handgun -nothing speaks louder then actual combat -whether in the streets of the USA or overseas!
 

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Love Garfield!

Sure, 1 or 2 well placed shots can stop a threat. I would just not count on it. Assume that they will not, and train and equip yourself accordingly.

A 1911 is not a 9mm Beretta M9. In the same platform, the 9mm version will usually recoil less than a .45 version. To some extent, training can overcome this, but physics is physics. A .45 bullet has a greater moment of inertia than a 9mm bullet.

As an aside, a while back I can across this interesting discussion of a "handgun pressure wave" wounding mechanism. In a nutshell, the authors argue that a bullet hit near the arteries around the heart can generate a pressure wave that travels up the arteries to the brain, contributing to terminal wounding effects. To their credit, the authors still concede that shot placement and penetration to the vitals are the most important factors in stopping a threat.

Interesting read here:

The Ballistic Pressure Wave Theory of Handgun Bullet Incapacitation
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Love Garfield!

Sure, 1 or 2 well placed shots can stop a threat. I would just not count on it. Assume that they will not, and train and equip yourself accordingly.

A 1911 is not a 9mm Beretta M9. In the same platform, the 9mm version will usually recoil less than a .45 version. To some extent, training can overcome this, but physics is physics. A .45 bullet has a greater moment of inertia than a 9mm bullet.

As an aside, a while back I can across this interesting discussion of a "handgun pressure wave" wounding mechanism. In a nutshell, the authors argue that a bullet hit near the arteries around the heart can generate a pressure wave that travels up the arteries to the brain, contributing to terminal wounding effects. To their credit, the authors still concede that shot placement and penetration to the vitals are the most important factors in stopping a threat.

Interesting read here:

The Ballistic Pressure Wave Theory of Handgun Bullet Incapacitation
Myself & Marine friends have proven you wrong in actual combat -Your physics and other ideals are a great read on the internet! Your lack of respect & desire to argue is not what my thread is all about! Its about muzzle energy concerning two rounds(1) 230+p Federal HST
(2) 185+p Doubletap
Please post what is related to my thead & not give a Marine pointers on how to shoot!
 

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Are we all carrying more gun than we should?
How do you mean "more gun than we should"
As the country song says: That's like a girl that's too pretty or a car that's too fast.
In a SD situation a Desert Eagle .44 auto mag is about right**, but I'd much rather CARRY an NAA Black Widow .22 WMR.
Somewhere in between is a compromise that I can live with.
Like the more experienced guys have said, find what works for you, and practice, practice practice.

**(actually, I've never had the opportunity to try a .44 mag in any gun, so that may be overstating)
 

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One's ability to shoot well in combat is not the primary issue here, although I'm sure it is there. The type of ammunition involved here is very different than that used in combat. FMJ is required in a combat zone, not so for civilian usage.

The complex interaction between modern hollow point expansion and velocity as well as materials encountered is why this question recurs and there is no definitive answer.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Reread my posts and you will discover that I was talking shooting skills I learned as a Marine in combat!

If you read my thead you will find that it involves two rounds! I did not ask for pointers on shooting better & what caliber to shoot. P.S I am very aware of the difference between full metal jacket & hollowpoint.
 

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Your lack of respect & desire to argue is not what my thread is all about! ...
Please post what is related to my thead & not give a Marine pointers on how to shoot!
Don't know what you are talking about. I was trying to have an intelligent conversation. Thanks for your service.

Good bye...
 

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1. "does having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster!" C-O-M

I'm gonna try to answere your question as best I can. Probably gonna come out as oversimplistic, but its the best i can do.
More muzzle energy 'should' incapacitate faster only up to the needed ME required to cause the bullet to reach the cns. In other words, one would have to know the minimum velocity and depth of penetration needed on the target at what distance to damage the cns enough to cause it to shut down. Anything more is potentially wasted energy, tho it can't hurt, and anything under that and you'll end up w/ a wound that may/may not stop your assailant immediately.

2. "which would you pick for home defense & why?" C-O-M
I, personally, would pick whichever one a) functioned as close to 100% in that particular pistol, b) placed as close to poa/poi at defensive distances, c) allowed the fastest, most accurate follow up shots. Having tested neither of these two particular rounds, I'd say its dealer's choice after testing. Both are from reputable companies w good track records.

This is the quandry of handgun rounds for all times, I suppose: enough power in a carriable sized package. And it all hinges on that cns. If that's not the first thing damaged, an immediate stop cannot be guaranteed.
So, yeah, more ME should incapacitiate sooner, if you get good hits. It sounds like you already got your stuff together. You've got training, exposure, experience under your belt. So my thought is you got the 'software' to make any 'hardware' work.

Good luck, and thank you for your Service.

dan
 
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