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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
According to Grossman......

A simple set of skills, combined with an emphasis on actions
requiring complex and gross motor muscle operations (as opposed to fine-motor
control), all extensively rehearsed, allows for extraordinary performance
levels under stress. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman,
The question we need to ask ourselves is. Are we practicing our gross or fine motor skills at the range? The more you concern yourself with everything being prefect before you can shoot the more you are putting yourself behind in the fight. Learn to make hits when grip, stance and hard sight picture are not there. Learn to let your body do what it needs to make the hits.

Yes, all things start with fundamentals but to win the game one needs to go beyond and learn to let it happen.
 

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This is one of the reasons why when at the range, when I go to shoot, I shoot.

Meaning that if sweat drops in my eye, a fly lands on my nose, my back itches, whatever, I take the shot.
 

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I had the priviledge of attending one of "Col. Dave's" courses and would absolutely recommend anyone (and everyone that CC's) take his course.
 

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There's more to it. 'Winning' a gunfight is not done, typically, by being more aggressive, taking the shot, being more accurate, dominating. It's taking the right shot at the right time and defending, seeking time, distance and cover (assuming you're not an assassin). So train hard and aggressively all you want at the range, but carry the mindset of 'survival' in a gunfight. Don't get killed. That's better than seeking to 'win'.

Though it might seem obvious, thought I'd throw that in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
BadgerJ, my thoughts on the start of a gunfight are don't get shot yourself and to get the first hit. He who gets the first good solid hit has the game changer, most times.

but carry the mindset of 'survival' in a gunfight. Don't get killed. That's better than seeking to 'win'.
For me "the mindset of 'survival' in a gunfight" is the wrong mindset as you can survive while being in the hospital for a long time. I want to win and by winning I walk away from the fight and go home afterwards. There is more to winning the fight than just winning the gun battle, there is always going to be the after action of winning the LE engagement.

Know you have the RIGHT to act before you act with the RIGHT training.
 
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Winning is everything in a gun fight second place is not a good time. I us extreme violence to overwhelm the enemy. It is not a game to me, so I do not game with my guns. I train with them. IMO the key to training is the reps involved in the drills. Preforming them to the point of failure to get better.
 

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I have my flame suit on so go ahead. I do not believe you can complete your training until you have experience. I have said before the first fight I was in I was not an asset to the group. As time went by and I learned to deal with that deafening roar in my ears and that tunnel vision I get along with controlling my breathing I became an asset to the group.

This is the game changer in my eyes. The gang banger is practicing his skills in real life drive by's and executions. They have a lot more real time on the gun than most police officers.

A good kill house is probably the best training outside of real shootings. I had a hard time with my fine motor skills for the longest time and I am guessing each person has different things to learn and deal with.

The range will get your hand eye coordination to the point you don't miss often. I wish there was a way to safely dump the adrenalin into your system while training. It would be great if you could crush a capsule in your teeth and get that instant drug push.

There is a system that is 180degree screen that allows you to fire while watching a movie and the operator can remotely operate a laser effectively shooting back at you on all exposed body parts. Pretty effective training.

Training is good getting and keeping the warrior mindset is the game changer in my book.

Then when you have done all of that the cruelest trick in life is played on you it is called bi-focals. Then the training starts all over for your lack of speed,hearing, sight etc.

Getting old sucks but the alternative isn't what I want.
 

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Learn to make hits when grip, stance and hard sight picture are not there. Learn to let your body do what it needs to make the hits.

Yes, all things start with fundamentals but to win the game one needs to go beyond and learn to let it happen.
Bill, The only thing you said that i take issue with is grip. I believe that a good grip is a must, after that everything else is easy.
 

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I have my flame suit on so go ahead. I do not believe you can complete your training until you have experience. I have said before the first fight I was in I was not an asset to the group. As time went by and I learned to deal with that deafening roar in my ears and that tunnel vision I get along with controlling my breathing I became an asset to the group.

This is the game changer in my eyes. The gang banger is practicing his skills in real life drive by's and executions. They have a lot more real time on the gun than most police officers.

A good kill house is probably the best training outside of real shootings. I had a hard time with my fine motor skills for the longest time and I am guessing each person has different things to learn and deal with.

The range will get your hand eye coordination to the point you don't miss often. I wish there was a way to safely dump the adrenalin into your system while training. It would be great if you could crush a capsule in your teeth and get that instant drug push.

There is a system that is 180degree screen that allows you to fire while watching a movie and the operator can remotely operate a laser effectively shooting back at you on all exposed body parts. Pretty effective training.

Training is good getting and keeping the warrior mindset is the game changer in my book.

Then when you have done all of that the cruelest trick in life is played on you it is called bi-focals. Then the training starts all over for your lack of speed,hearing, sight etc.

Getting old sucks but the alternative isn't what I want.
The do have a shot for that. Epinephrine, Its dumps and you go. It is not as good as experience, but it is very very close to the real thing. No flame here...
 

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Force on Force training can get you going (the experience is really good). So can doing Paintball Gaming on a Military M.O.U.N.T Camp where you have a real city, apartments, fire station, city hall and two story School. 150 people on each side some with full auto paint ball guns and two way radio communications. This is about as real as it gets without real bullets. I have done USPSA against the clock including Mystery stages where you don't know what is in the Kill House. All of these are great training situations to keep you sharp and the skills well learned. Gun Fighting skills from some of the well known schools out there can give you a sharp edge where it is a 360 degree range and the guns are loaded all the time. I am planning what to take next later this year. YMMV.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Bill, The only thing you said that i take issue with is grip. I believe that a good grip is a must, after that everything else is easy.
Yes the grip is important but there are times when the S^^^^ hits that you just don't get that good grip. You don't get the hand drove in up high on the gun or you get all tangled up in your shirt tail. There is no way you can say STOP and start all over you have to fight with what you have. If you have distance on your side there may be time to adjust. But up close and personal where most fight happen you have to make do
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have my flame suit on so go ahead. I do not believe you can complete your training until you have experience. I have said before the first fight I was in I was not an asset to the group. As time went by and I learned to deal with that deafening roar in my ears and that tunnel vision I get along with controlling my breathing I became an asset to the group. As a CCer where do you get to have that experience? You are not in a group so you have to be all you can be, because it's only you there in most CC situations.

I see that experience being in good structured FOF training. The closest thing to the real gunfight I've found.

This is the game changer in my eyes. The gang banger is practicing his skills in real life drive by's and executions. They have a lot more real time on the gun than most police officers.

A good kill house is probably the best training outside of real shootings. I had a hard time with my fine motor skills for the longest time and I am guessing each person has different things to learn and deal with.

The range will get your hand eye coordination to the point you don't miss often. I wish there was a way to safely dump the adrenalin into your system while training. It would be great if you could crush a capsule in your teeth and get that instant drug push.

There is a system that is 180degree screen that allows you to fire while watching a movie and the operator can remotely operate a laser effectively shooting back at you on all exposed body parts. Pretty effective training.

Training is good getting and keeping the warrior mindset is the game changer in my book. Mindset is the determining factor of the fight.

Then when you have done all of that the cruelest trick in life is played on you it is called bi-focals. Then the training starts all over for your lack of speed,hearing, sight etc.

Getting old sucks but the alternative isn't what I want. I could not agree more on the getting old problem.

My thoughts in red.
 

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Yes the grip is important but there are times when the S^^^^ hits that you just don't get that good grip. You don't get the hand drove in up high on the gun or you get all tangled up in your shirt tail. There is no way you can say STOP and start all over you have to fight with what you have. If you have distance on your side there may be time to adjust. But up close and personal where most fight happen you have to make do
You are right, but I still try to get a good grip.
 

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Force on Force training can get you going (the experience is really good). So can doing Paintball Gaming on a Military M.O.U.N.T Camp where you have a real city, apartments, fire station, city hall and two story School. 150 people on each side some with full auto paint ball guns and two way radio communications. This is about as real as it gets without real bullets. I have done USPSA against the clock including Mystery stages where you don't know what is in the Kill House. All of these are great training situations to keep you sharp and the skills well learned. Gun Fighting skills from some of the well known schools out there can give you a sharp edge where it is a 360 degree range and the guns are loaded all the time. I am planning what to take next later this year. YMMV.
+1 on Force-on-Force training. I've been in training courses where they use noise and time pressure to create stress. I've tried things like running and doing pushups immediately before shooting. And, I've used the video simulators at Gander Mountain Academy. All are good and helpful.

But, FOF (using Airsoft guns, which do surprisingly hurt and leave marks for a good 2+ weeks where you've been hit) was a completely new level of stress and training. You have one or two people "attacking" (scenarios like being trapped in an alley, being attacked between cars in a parking lot, home invasion, etc.) you, there is some pain (after the first few times I almost stopped feeling it as I was more focused on my goal), and there is an incredible amount of stress. It is great.

It also pointed out other areas that I needed to improve my training - such as magazine changes with gloves on, shot control (not so much point of impact, but rather unloading the gun right away), being too quick to shoot and not giving verbal warnings when appropriate, etc. It was an eye opener for me. Most of what I was doing was good / right (muscle memory, gross motor functions, target identification, etc.), but with that extra stress of people shooting at you everything gets that much harder.

As an aside, one thing I did is purchase an Airsoft gun that was closer in function to my carry pistol (a WE G17) with extra magazines. It's not a perfect match (weight is different, recoil different, I shoot a subcompact instead of full-size), but it is close enough to be helpful for things like tactical reloads. It was hard to find the training, but definitely worth the time and expense once I did. I only wish I could do this more often.
 

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There's more to it. 'Winning' a gunfight is not done, typically, by being more aggressive, taking the shot, being more accurate, dominating. It's taking the right shot at the right time and defending, seeking time, distance and cover (assuming you're not an assassin). So train hard and aggressively all you want at the range, but carry the mindset of 'survival' in a gunfight. Don't get killed. That's better than seeking to 'win'.

Though it might seem obvious, thought I'd throw that in.
BadgerJ...I would encourage you to get a copy of "Principles of Personal Defense" by Jeff Cooper... Jeff Cooper is perhaps the nation's foremost authority on defensive weaponcraft... Without quoting the complete book here, I'll just pass along HIS "seven" principles of personal defense...

1. Alertness
2. Decisiveness
3. AGGRESSIVENESS
4. Speed
5. Coolness
6. RUTHLESSNESS
7. Surprise

I strongly urge you to reconsider YOUR thinking and position as to your statements...

Stay safe and seek the knowledge and ability that will allow you to survive should the need arise... JMO
 
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