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Train like you fight, I always say. So what realistic SD scenario requires someone to "run a gun " all day for 500 rounds? So your scenario forces students to stop training with the guns they actually carry and train with ones they don't carry just to get through the course. I have experienced this with trainers myself. What good does it do?

FWIW, I was taught to shoot expert with a 1911 using a pencil, no ammo. I am not kidding. I was also taught to point shoot, very well, by a legendary SD instructor, with no ammo. Not a shot fired. Both used techniques few instructors know anymore.
Before they can fight they need to learn solid fundamentals. Without the fundamentals you can not fight effectively.

Really? Why cherry-pick when you should know better, shame. Shouldn’t we be concentrating on getting good information out?
 

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I guess it is a personal choice and preference. Depending on the situation, environment, and needs of the person carrying. If I want to conceal carry, low profile, I prefer short. However, I do prefer more heavier of a weight for less recoil, and a longer grip so that I can wrap all my fingers on it. I'm saving up so I can have a bit of a variety down the road.
 

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Before they can fight they need to learn solid fundamentals. Without the fundamentals you can not fight effectively.

Really? Why cherry-pick when you should know better, shame. Shouldn’t we be concentrating on getting good information out?
What did I "cherry pick?" I am putting out good information. It is yours I question. The only thing I agree with you on is the idea about solid fundamentals. I just know they can be taught without burning a lot of powder. You know as well as I that the vast majority of people who carry are above average if they take one course past their CC qual and won't shoot 500 rounds in their life. Fundamentals can be taught more efficiently. I have seen it work. I have personally experienced it.
 

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What did I "cherry pick?" I am putting out good information. It is yours I question. The only thing I agree with you on is the idea about solid fundamentals. I just know they can be taught without burning a lot of powder. You know as well as I that the vast majority of people who carry are above average if they take one course past their CC qual and won't shoot 500 rounds in their life. Fundamentals can be taught more efficiently. I have seen it work. I have personally experienced it.
Absolutely you can teach someone fundamentals with a lower round count.

Some students want to be better than average.
 

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Thank you all for sharing your opinions, preferences, and experiences.

The inspiration came from a recent range trip where we got to try out a S&W scandium k-frame loaded with .38 +P.

We were all pleasantly surprised at how well it shot and how good it felt in our hands. Weight wise it's notably lighter than even a snub k-frame made of steel.

That's when many of us who shot it decided we would indeed reconsider full size semi autos as EDCs if they managed to weigh as little as the subcompacts, since the larger grips/handles would allow for easier control and recoil distribution despite the much lower weight.
Are you sure it was a scandium K-Frame? Or, was it an aluminum alloy K-Frame which would be Smith & Wesson's Model 12?
 

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I shot alot in the 80s and 90s and ran lots of club matches for years. Not so much now, though I still enjoy getting out to shoot. What prompted me to get my permit was the wife being in a wheel chair now and the new vulnerability we faced. My first concern was up close and maybe even surprised. So my first guns were pocket guns, esp coat pocket guns.

Once we all saw the Texas Church shooting and the 15 yard head shot, I think it made alot of us rethink what we were doing. That would be a hard shot and probably not doable with a snub or small 380. They are still much lighter and just don't hold as steady as a heavier, larger handgun. Some might be able to but I doubt many could. Actually, after running so many matches and witnessing the results, I doubt many could with a full size; only the dedicated or gifted could, especially under pressure.

I know my 19oz 3" Bulldog is much harder to steady at longer ranges than say the Sig P250sc in the mid to high 20 ounces. Even a steel 3" J frame is steadier and easier to shoot than the Bulldog or a 2" snub. That is probably why we see some on here splitting the difference with the SP101s. By the time I get to the low to mid 30 ounces +, they get a bit heavy for edc though I will carry them on occasion.
 

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Thank you all for sharing your opinions, preferences, and experiences.

The inspiration came from a recent range trip where we got to try out a S&W scandium k-frame loaded with .38 +P.

We were all pleasantly surprised at how well it shot and how good it felt in our hands. Weight wise it's notably lighter than even a snub k-frame made of steel.

That's when many of us who shot it decided we would indeed reconsider full size semi autos as EDCs if they managed to weigh as little as the subcompacts, since the larger grips/handles would allow for easier control and recoil distribution despite the much lower weight.
I like shooting full size guns. But they are not as easy to carry. I like carrying my 642 at about 12 OZ. But I would not want to make a 500 round range day with it. Before I would do that , I have an old beat up looking Rossi with a 3" barrel that weighs 24 OZ. It has the same grip feel, and its cylinder release is in the same place as the 642. But it would be much more comfortable to shoot that many rounds through in one day! [That would be a very long day!]. I think for me each has it's own use.
I tried carrying a full size gun for several years. I found myself dumping it in a kitchen drawer as soon as I got home. And I tried several guns, same outcome. But once I tried pocket carry, I can't see myself changing. The gun stays with me all day , every day. I don't forget its there, but it doesn't get in my way. So for me it's size and weight. Now if you come up with a belt fed j frame sized gun that weighs under 12oz..... You might get me to change! DR
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Are you sure it was a scandium K-Frame? Or, was it an aluminum alloy K-Frame which would be Smith & Wesson's Model 12?
Not sure, it was a gun club member's gun at the range. He said it was scandium, but maybe be was mistaken? It was matt black as opposed to polished blue or something like it and it looked like a more modern design. It also had a 3 barrel with a pretty large front sight.
 

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Not sure, it was a gun club member's gun at the range. He said it was scandium, but maybe be was mistaken? It was matt black as opposed to polished blue or something like it and it looked like a more modern design. It also had a 3 barrel with a pretty large front sight.
When you mentioned the three inch barrel and a large front sight it sorta jogged my memory and I did some quick research to come up with the Model 315 which was a scandium K-Frame. I'd forgotten about those. I thought Smith & Wesson had about abandoned the K-Frame by the time scandium was introduced. A Model 315 would have to be an uncommonly found revolver.
 
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Discussion Starter #52
When you mentioned the three inch barrel and a large front sight it sorta jogged my memory and I did some quick research to come up with the Model 315 which was a scandium K-Frame. I'd forgotten about those. I thought Smith & Wesson had about abandoned the K-Frame by the time scandium was introduced. A Model 315 would have to be an uncommonly found revolver.
I just googled it after your reply and based on the pictures online I think you're right. lol you must have a pictographic memory or just a Smith & Wesson aficionado. Thanks for chiming in.
 

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I'm a Smith & Wesson aficionado to the bone, however I'm also forgetful to a fault.
 

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If ?
Walther PPK 25 ounces
Kimber Ultra Carry II 25 ounces
Glock 22 (full size) 25 ounces

I carry a Glock 32 all day long and don't notice the weight.
 

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My M&P .45 Shield comes in at 29 ounces with the loaded six round carry mag. Weight is of absolutely no consequence in my selection of edc.
 

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Turned down a chance to shoot a 315...having put six through a new 12 back in the 70s, I didn't need a reminder...friend sold the 315 cheap after putting a box through it...I just need more gun than that to soak up the recoil. I'm a sissy! Love the Ks and Sixes...and they're fun to shoot...in steel.
 

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I spoiled myself. I’ve been carrying the lightweight J-Frames for so long that I don’t like the heavier guns. It’s not that I don’t like them, my back feels it after a few hours. Maybe if I just forced myself to carry the heavier gun I could get used to it again. Now that the weather here is cool enough for Jackets it’s just so easy to keep my pants pocket J in the pocket and the waistband J can be moved to my Jacket pocket. I know a J-Frame Snub is not for everyone but, they work well for me.
 

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I shot alot in the 80s and 90s and ran lots of club matches for years. Not so much now, though I still enjoy getting out to shoot. What prompted me to get my permit was the wife being in a wheel chair now and the new vulnerability we faced. My first concern was up close and maybe even surprised. So my first guns were pocket guns, esp coat pocket guns.

Once we all saw the Texas Church shooting and the 15 yard head shot, I think it made alot of us rethink what we were doing. That would be a hard shot and probably not doable with a snub or small 380. They are still much lighter and just don't hold as steady as a heavier, larger handgun. Some might be able to but I doubt many could. Actually, after running so many matches and witnessing the results, I doubt many could with a full size; only the dedicated or gifted could, especially under pressure.

I know my 19oz 3" Bulldog is much harder to steady at longer ranges than say the Sig P250sc in the mid to high 20 ounces. Even a steel 3" J frame is steadier and easier to shoot than the Bulldog or a 2" snub. That is probably why we see some on here splitting the difference with the SP101s. By the time I get to the low to mid 30 ounces +, they get a bit heavy for edc though I will carry them on occasion.
I was shooting clay pigeons @ 50 yards with my 44 bulldog. Not hitting all of them, but scaring them all to death. I used to shoot PPC.
 

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Jay, If you get interested in belt fed revolvers look at a gun called the Dardick. It was not exactly belt fed, [ but when you see it you will get the idea]. It used triangle shaped cartridge's called a Tround. It was a late 50's early 60's invention that the world was not ready for yet. But a lot of the ideas the guy put out there are now being used. He was the first to suggest plastic cased ammo. now the army is trying that out.
If you could work out the details, belt feeding a revolver would allow me to carry as much ammo as any semi auto but in a revolver!

 

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I prefer large bullets in my primary carry guns. Weight soaks up the felt recoil of heavier calibers. Longer barrels add weight for less felt recoil, provide more velocity for more energy, and provide a longer sight radius to improve my accuracy.

My primary carry guns include: 5" government model 1911 steel pistols in .45 ACP or 10mm, 4" steel revolvers in .357 magnum or .44 magnum, and a 5.3" FNH FNX-45 Tactical .45 ACP for increased capacity.

The FNH is the lightest at 33.6 ounces empty. With fifteen plus one rounds in the gun and two spare magazines, it is actually my heaviest conceal carry.

My heaviest "empty" guns that I open carry are an 8" Colt Anaconda .44 magnum at 53 ounces or the 7 1/2" Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull at 53.5 ounces.

Small lightweight guns do not appeal to me for carry.
 
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