Well Crowman guess we will have to agree to disagree.

By your standards since the criminals are out before the ink dries and plea bargain anyway lets just save all the money and not arrest them to begin with. It's ok though the police will catch them another day maybe before they break into another house, rape another woman or kill some kid for his tennis shoes.

You just sit there on your couch, behind your locked door and all will be ok with the world.

 

Crowman is correct unfortunately.

By your standards it is OK for Law Enforcement to commit Sanctioned Extreme Violent Beatings/MURDERs as long as they are trying to catch a Bad Guy after which they can say OOPs we might have went too far but reast assured there will be an Internal Investigation that says the victim shouldn't have resisted the LEOs & they would only be traumatized instead of severely injured or DEAD.

What is worse seriously, being beaten or murdered is the same no matter which side does it? Only real difference is one side doesn't make as many excuses.

Home Invasions are a tool along with many others supposedly in the name of safety that are abused frequently especially with the militarization of local & state Law enforcement.

 

Let me see if I can get this straight.

Before no knock was allowed criminals ran loose.

Now that there is no knock the criminals are still running loose.

I guess a good question is could the criminals that were apprehended with no knock still be apprehended if no knock did not exist. My guess is yes since law enforcement apprehended criminals for years without no knocks.

As far as drug dealers flushing the evidence I think the possible saving of even one law abiding citizen being beaten/killed accidental invasion by law enforcement due to wrong address far outweighs busting the dealers.

 

As stated we will just have to agree to disagree. You say you are correct and I say you are not so it is simply tit for tat.

You continue to morph wrong addresses, home invasions and no knock warrants to satisfy your comments, so I won't confuse you with facts your mind is made up. No Knock warrants when correctly applied for and executed are a part of the LE and legal system and have been and will be around for a long time to come and I doubt seriously if either one of your opinions will change that so continue to rant and rave about how wrong they are and just think while you are posting somewhere a No Knock warrant is being served right now.

Have a wonderful day

 

No Knock warrants ... are a part of the LE and legal system and have been and will be around for a long time to come and I doubt seriously if either one of your opinions will change that

This is correct. It will take an event like a NKR on a member of Congress (bad address) where he and his family are pulled out on the lawn and held at gunpoint while their house is searched. The cop that is holding them gets an itchy finger and blows the head off the Congressman's daughter. The internal investigation will exonerate the cop. This type of event (which has happened, just not to a Congressman) is what it will take to restore the 4A.

 

Well ks I guess the scenario could happen. Lets see member of congress, wrong address, ND kills a child I am sure someone can figure the statistics on that there must be a formula somewhere. Until then I guess we have to live with the laws that are in place.

 

........ Until then I guess we have to live with the laws that are in place.

We may have to "live with the laws that are in place" temporarily, but once enough people (like many on this forum) get thoroughly PO'd and involved, then our leaders will (hopefully) start to pay attention.

 

Chevy if the laws need to be changed then hopefully, someday, maybe, somewhere a politician will take notice but he would have to challenge and rewrite laws that have been on the books for decades and either way it would end up being political suicide which he probably would not want to do.

I honestly do not know what it would take for "our leaders" to take notice. If they have not seen anything wrong with it by now I really don't think they will.

 

It's about time..

 

In my opinion both sides of this issue have legitimate concerns. It is more than likely true that if your home is invaded by armed individuals you will be harmed and possibly killed. If the invaders you presume to be bad guys are LEO's the chance of your being harmed are even greater if you resist.

That fact should not deter a person from resisting if they are doing nothing wrong and truly believe that it is some street gang or other criminals. But please lets not add insult to injury by prosecuting a person, who while doing nothing illegal that would cause the Government to invade, attempts to defend themselves.

Michael

 

We are talking about officers in good faith executing properly issued warrants but making a mistake and hitting the wrong location. So like it or not this is not a 4A issue. It is a question of either someone reading something incorrectly or writing something incorrectly, unless you believe that officers are intentionally going to the wrong houses.

Citizens should not have to give up their right to self-defense because of an error they had nothing to do with.

Michael

 

Who says anyone is giving up that right? Actions have consequences. Our world.and the people that populate it are not perfect. When we buy or guns and ammo we are assuming some risk. When we decide we are going to carry weapons we assume risk. If we decide to employ deadly force against someone we assume risk. If we are right we win. If we are wrong we are dead.

This is serious business. Every time I load a weapon it is with the understanding that if I discharge that weapon it could result in me on a gurney in Huntsville with a needle in my arm. And I accept that.

 

search warrants are not the issue at hand no knock warrants are.

Wow well I guess I don't need to say then a No Knock warrant is a legal search warrant then.

 

Legal - yes. Constitutional, not so much. Regardless of what 9 black robed government-employed lawyers say (and they, beinig 1/3 of the government have a vested interest in the growth of the government and its power), NKRs do not meet Constitutional muster.

BTW, you would have made a great soldier in King George's army. You seem to think just like they did.

In the United States of America, the government is not the sovereign, the people are.

 

MCP outstanding post.

 

Ks you really need to research a little more on search warrants and the process to obtain them.

For NKR warrants to actually meet the Constitutional definitions, they would have to say that "we are looking for 'so and so' and 'such and such'


Well no clue, that is correct it is called an affidavit, it is required on every search warrant regardless of type in the US, so since they are done on every single warrant in the United States then all the said warrants meet the requirments set forth in the constitution. There is not some "search warrants are us" shop in the back of Best Buy where LE can go to buy a search warrant.
They have to go before a judge, present the affidavit and be sworn to it. Then and only then will the warrant be issued if the judge finds probable cause for the warrant. The officer can request all he wants for a no knock but if it does not meet the criteria it is not given.

That criteria includes very specific things that LE is searching for it simply does not say "We want to search Bill's house" specific items or materials are listed. Should they find evidence of another crime they would stop and obtain a separate warrant for that item. If I am searching for drugs and decide to run th SN on the TV and it is stolen it does me no good that is evidence obtained from "The fruit of the poisonous tree" and is inadmissilbe in court. There is not even a crime scene exception to the constitution, meaning at the scene of a murder you better get a search warrant to gather evidence or you may find yourself losing your case when it goes to court.


if anything moves we reserve the right to blow it away."


Please show me in text or by case law that this is anything more than your ramblings.

There are only three ways LE can enter your home. In active pursuit, he is chasing you and you run into your house he can follow you. Emergency circumstance, he answers a call to your house and sees someone stabbing you he can enter, he sees you laying on the floor bleeding he can enter or finally with a warrant issued by a judge anything else is unlawful.

Well not sure about being a good soldier in the King's army, as I type this I am sitting here with my counterpart, a former British Armed Police Officer with more than 25 years service in England and Northern Ireland. I let him read some of the replies and he has informed me that I am much to weak and liberal to have been a good soldier in the King's army or to be a Police Officer in the UK.
Whether you like the system or not we are luckier than other countries. In England for example if I am stopped and arrested for a "Serious arrestable offense" such as selling drugs, the officer then contacts a ranking police inspector who agrees, signs off and he can then search my car, house or anything else without a warrant or a judge involved at all. This includes the residence where I am simply staying at, doesn't even have to be mine and if they find evidence of another crime they simply arrest me on that charge and continue on.
Then when I say "Simon is selling drugs to and is my supplier" they can now go arrest him for "Suspicion of selling drugs" and continue to search all he owns without a warrant at all and the process will continue until someone gets tired of searching. The entry into the home can be by whatever means needed to complete the search.

Just for the hell of it I asked him if they were given a lot of false information that led to bad arrests and his reply was no, the system worked quite well. The officer makes an arrest, an Inspector signs off, the seach is done, evidence is found and they go to jail, "Quite simple really" in his heavy British accent.

Whether you like the Supreme Court or not the issue of warrants has been through several Presidential administrations of both parties, several supreme court justices, and have passed the test of time and the courts, they are still there. There is nothing unconstitutional or illegal about them. Is the system perfect? Nope. But it is all we have to work with and there will always be someone who will try to work the system or the worst of all abuse it for their own gain.

 

OK, this has went way off the tracks and into the realm of absurd. I think all that needs to be said has several times over.