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As the point was made up above used to not allow folks to shoot at my range without proof that they can have the suppressor legally. Those that fought me on it have made me not allow suppressor's at all now.
I have to make sure there are no felonies being committed on my property I am not willing to lose everything and sadly folks that do not care about my property and the investment I have made in to it have caused a ban for everyone well everyone except me after closing time.
Do you likewise ask people if they are legally entitled to possess a firearm while on your range? Do you ask to see handgunners' carry permit or permit to purchase? Just curious how far you extend your actions to ensure no felonies being committed on your property.
 
Do you likewise ask people if they are legally entitled to possess a firearm while on your range? Do you ask to see handgunners' carry permit or permit to purchase? Just curious how far you extend your actions to ensure no felonies being committed on your property.
lol all shooters sign a form stating they can legally own and shoot firearms that way I am covered if the folks from the BATF stop in. we are a pistol caliber only range and we do allow PCCs. At the moment short barreled rifles are not legal in Michigan so I have not ran in to any problems with that if the Governor signs the law permitting I will probably not allow them on the range either.
 
Do you likewise ask people if they are legally entitled to possess a firearm while on your range? Do you ask to see handgunners' carry permit or permit to purchase? Just curious how far you extend your actions to ensure no felonies being committed on your property.

I had exactly the same questions when I read the post. I'm sure there are many felons with access to guns, since the silly gun laws don't seem to stop them from committing their crimes.

Is he running backgrounds on every member and person walking in on the street?


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I love how people attack the guy for running HIS range the way he wants to run it. Whether he asks to see a tax stamp or wants to insist that only bikini briefs be worn under pants while shooting is nobody's business other than his. If someone doesn't like his rules they are free to go spend money somewhere else.
 
With that being said...its a TAX STAMP. The local police have no more jurisdiction over that than they do when they demand to see a copy of your tax return. If in question, they are supposed to notify the ATF, who can verify that you do indeed have a valid stamp.
While ATF Form 5320-4 for transferring/taxing a firearm does indicate the following ...

Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request.

Does that mean local law enforcement cannot enforce the law in that case, requiring to see proof when PC exists for an apparent infraction? NO PC can easily exist in the case of income tax forms, for LE, but the mere fact an NFA item is in hand means PC can easily be established. Is this irrelevant? Are they precluded?
 
I keep photocopies of my NFA forms with my range gear, and the first number on my phone is "ATF - NFA Branch" to the West Virginia office.

Anyone who has a legitimate reason to ask about my toys, that should do it. Otherwise, they can call Information and ask for the number for the black helicopter office.
 
Each and every time we play with full auto, someone will call the local Sheriff. I can be on the farm in a very remote part of the state (nearest blacktop road is eleven miles away) and once we start firing, within a half hour, the sheriff's dept pulls up. ALL kinds of ID then has to be produced, including the tax stamps.

This was just one of three reasons I got rid of my full auto guns.
 
"Does that mean local law enforcement cannot enforce the law in that case, requiring to see proof when PC exists for an apparent infraction? NO PC can easily exist in the case of income tax forms, for LE, but the mere fact an NFA item is in hand means PC can easily be established. Is this irrelevant? Are they precluded?"

Not quite. If the weapon is being used in a legal manner, there is no "pc".
This is no different than an open carrier wearing a gun in plain view. The courts have said that minus wrongdoing, there is no probable cause to stop or detain. Of course, it varies in places that are hostile to the US Constitution.
 
"Does that mean local law enforcement cannot enforce the law in that case, requiring to see proof when PC exists for an apparent infraction? NO PC can easily exist in the case of income tax forms, for LE, but the mere fact an NFA item is in hand means PC can easily be established. Is this irrelevant? Are they precluded?"

Not quite. If the weapon is being used in a legal manner, there is no "pc".
This is no different than an open carrier wearing a gun in plain view. The courts have said that minus wrongdoing, there is no probable cause to stop or detain. Of course, it varies in places that are hostile to the US Constitution.
If CC requires a license/permit to carry, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If OC requires a license/permit to OC, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If a suppressor requires documentation to own/use it, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If driving a motor vehicle requires a license, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If installing a fence requires a permit, LE can lawfully ask to see it.

All without any indication of wrongdoing.
 
Each and every time we play with full auto, someone will call the local Sheriff. I can be on the farm in a very remote part of the state (nearest blacktop road is eleven miles away) and once we start firing, within a half hour, the sheriff's dept pulls up. ALL kinds of ID then has to be produced, including the tax stamps.

This was just one of three reasons I got rid of my full auto guns.
That would be the one reason I kept 'em... If LEO is gonna come out more than once... Then shame on him...

Only problem is I live in Iowa, where as has been mentioned, we don't get to have any of the "neato stuff."
 
If CC requires a license/permit to carry, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If OC requires a license/permit to OC, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If a suppressor requires documentation to own/use it, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If driving a motor vehicle requires a license, LE can lawfully ask to see it.
If installing a fence requires a permit, LE can lawfully ask to see it.

All without any indication of wrongdoing.
So, a police officer can pull you over anytime he wants just to see your drivers license? Without any other reason?

"Paperz Pleaze!"
 
So, a police officer can pull you over anytime he wants just to see your drivers license? Without any other reason?

"Paperz Pleaze!"
Yes if you are driving on a public road, if a private road then no
 
Technically yes, often done at "license checkpoints" which are more likely a subdued DUI checkpoint. Driving a MV requires a license--which must be produced upon demand by LE. Same as most other things that "require" a license/permit.

The reality is: How often does it happen to you? Rarely if ever for me.
 
I have been harassed by an individual officer when on my motorcycle(he's no longer employed locally). He pulled me over every time he saw me. He always had some vague reason that was totally fabricated but never never said he pulled me over just to check my papers. BTW, he never once issued a citation and I'd estimate that he pulled me over 15 times over the course of a couple years.
 
And apparently he earned his just reward for his behavior. Those types generally get what is coming to them. Karma. It wasn't that he "couldn't" sto you, but that he "shouldn't" have stopped you.
 
4th "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

They require either probable cause or a warrant to search you, or examine your "papers", thus it has always been, and is supported by enumerable SCOTUS cases and lower court rulings. That you can site a few outlier rulings from idiot judges (some judges ARE idiots) and pretend that negates the 4th Amendment is lunacy, but our system of legal precedent is pretty loony standing all by itself. Simply doing what is legal isn't justification for a search, no matter how much of a mindless drone you are. The potential to commit a crime, or to not be in compliance with some authoritarian law never has been justification for a search (if it was then the whole concept of "probable cause" is out the window), and the day it is there will be a revolution, because everyone will be a "criminal" but those with a badge (some already see the world this way). This is a very basic tenet of our rights as free citizens, and without it we are not citizens but rather subjects. Now, practically, the police can do whatever they want, and prosecutors can prosecute whatever they want. There are stories of this everyday, and sometimes they even win their lunatic cases when they get a similarly lunatic judge. Ultimately you have to be willing to take the time and spend the money to fight in court, and they are banking that you won't. This is how our liberty gets sapped away one unlawful search at a time. We are predisposed to it, as we are more likely to suffer evils while evil is sufferable that to right our selves. You are kidding yourself if you think the apatite of the American people for suffering tyranny is bottomless.

No one wants criminals to get away with crimes, but trading that for assuming everyone is a criminal is way worse than letting a few get away, and the moment it isn't this is no longer America. Nothing disgusts me more than law and order types who claim patriotism with no respect for what makes patriotism worthwhile in the first place, LIBERTY. Without that you're just a henchman working for the powerful to keep them powerful. There is a reason we swear loyalty oaths not to a government or a set of politicians, but to ideals enshrined in a document, and you don't understand the oath if you believe that orders supersede those ideals you're in the wrong business. No one gives up the right to think and be a moral person because they are under the authority of someone else, and if you have been so convinced you make yourself an enemy of everything this country was founded upon and everything we believe. Without your ignorance and complicity our system keeps (or at least used to keep) tyranny in check, with it we are in deep trouble.

It requires belief in the system, and belief in human liberty and human dignity. If you don't believe in those things you have no business claiming to serve them or following the orders of people who don't.

From the ATF site:
"The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported" The stamp is (was) affixed to the document.

Another LEO can probably arrest based on the suspicion of an illegal firearm if you can't produce the same, but only the BATFE can force you to produce it as a condition of it's issuance.

Like all these draconian laws there is necessarily a huge gray area of questionable legality in which nefarious forces can play to deprive you of your pursuit of happiness. In that respect they go against the spirit of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence if not it's letter. If you value liberty and the free pursuit of happiness these are precisely the kinds of laws we should all be working to banish to the dust bin of history.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
Well talk about pulling the pin and walking out of the room!

Let me clarify a few things here. I live in a rural area and my range is not like the majority of the ranges you guys shoot at. We don't have range masters as the idea is that everyone is expected to be a range master. It's very rare to have more then two or three shooters, and there are many times I have been the only one there. My position is not one of questioning authority, it's more of a question of who truly has authority besides LE or ATF. Frankly I don't think a standard LEO needs to play ATF either, if you are being safe and minding your own business. Again we are already shooting firearms here guys and having a can or an SBR does not pose anymore danger or elevate it. Now if I was asked by a LEO I would definitely show a copy of my stamp as there is no need to give myself any unnecessary grief.

If you are a range owner, don't act as if you are just trying to stop crime. If that were the case you would be doing background checks, drug screening, serial number scans, and breathalysers for all members. We all know why you would not do that now don't we? You can make the decision to deny membership if that is your prerogative, as indeed you do own the business. I cannot fault anyone for doing what they want to do with their own business.

I would also like to clarify that I have never had issues with any range owner nor LEO, but I also carry myself properly from a skill and respect level. This is just a thought process I have had recently and figured I would ask you guys if you have experienced it.

We just had a shot at owning suppressors shot down by our own Rob ("Boss") Hogg. Too dangerous, etc.....

JD can probably elaborate.
We passed them a couple years ago, just passed SBR's a few weeks ago!
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