Defensive Carry banner

41 - 60 of 65 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,979 Posts
There’s a recent example of a lady at a dog park pepper spraying a guy who wasn’t wearing a mask. Her attack was unprovoked. I think if I was in his situation, I wouldn’t draw and shoot her but she’d get a nice meal of knuckle sandwiches until she stopped spraying me.

Now, if it’s a gang of hoodlums instead of a lady, it’s a different story.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
There’s a recent example of a lady at a dog park pepper spraying a guy who wasn’t wearing a mask. Her attack was unprovoked. I think if I was in his situation, I wouldn’t draw and shoot her but she’d get a nice meal of knuckle sandwiches until she stopped spraying me.

Now, if it’s a gang of hoodlums instead of a lady, it’s a different story.
Hmmm. I wonder if you’ve ever had the pleasure of a blast of cs or pepper fully in your face. You get hit in your eyes, nose and mouth, you ain’t putting knuckles on anybody, other than the ground. You will be f*•ked.

It has nothing to do with your personal bravery or toughness, it is mammalian physiology, which means your eyes clamp shut, your nose stops passing air and your mouth, tongue and throat constrict. All you can try to do is breath.

The above start dumping tears, snot and phlegm in ridiculous debilitating amounts. The icing on the cake is the pain. Blinding, crushing pain. Your knees buckle. You swoon, bob, lose your balance and geospatial awareness. You are are blind.

Without aid, you may recover between ten and thirty minutes.

So, big guy, what happens to you in the moments following? A kick to your crotch? More spray? Blunt force trauma from a small rock? Worse?

If you think I’m exaggerating in the slightest, go to Walgreens or Dunham’s and get the low end consumer kind of pepper spray. You know, the one with a key chain in a pretty pink cylinder about the size of a role of quarters? Go into the parking lot, turn the nozzle to where the nozzle is looking you in the eye and press down...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,930 Posts
Having been sprayed right in my open eyes (glasses off) from a close distance (In the Academy), I decided that if somebody sprayed me, I would definitely shoot them. Now, this was in the context of being in uniform and being attacked.

In reality, context matters a great deal. Is the person acting aggressively towards myself or others? Is there another potential weapon at hand? Age and physical prowess of all parties? Is it a mad granny? IS it a gang-banger? Is there more than one aggressor? etc etc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,979 Posts
Hmmm. I wonder if you’ve ever had the pleasure of a blast of cs or pepper fully in your face. You get hit in your eyes, nose and mouth, you ain’t putting knuckles on anybody, other than the ground. You will be f*•ked.

It has nothing to do with your personal bravery or toughness, it is mammalian physiology, which means your eyes clamp shut, your nose stops passing air and your mouth, tongue and throat constrict. All you can try to do is breath.

The above start dumping tears, snot and phlegm in ridiculous debilitating amounts. The icing on the cake is the pain. Blinding, crushing pain. Your knees buckle. You swoon, bob, lose your balance and geospatial awareness. You are are blind.

Without aid, you may recover between ten and thirty minutes.

So, big guy, what happens to you in the moments following? A kick to your crotch? More spray? Blunt force trauma from a small rock? Worse?

If you think I’m exaggerating in the slightest, go to Walgreens or Dunham’s and get the low end consumer kind of pepper spray. You know, the one with a key chain in a pretty pink cylinder about the size of a role of quarters? Go into the parking lot, turn the nozzle to where the nozzle is looking you in the eye and press down...
I’ve had an indirect hit with pepper spray, so yes. But I appreciate the snarkiness of your response.

As a side note, I thought abbreviations for swear words were ill advised on this forum?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
620 Posts
The rule that I've always held to is that I must feel that my life (or the lives of loved ones) is in danger in order to justify the use of deadly force. Pepper spray, as horrible as the effects may be, doesn't put one's life in jeopardy. So, my answer is NO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ctr

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,323 Posts
The rule that I've always held to is that I must feel that my life (or the lives of loved ones) is in danger in order to justify the use of deadly force. Pepper spray, as horrible as the effects may be, doesn't put one's life in jeopardy. So, my answer is NO.
One's life, or the lives of one's loved ones, is not the primary, or first, level meeting the criteria. That first level is serious bodily harm. You can be seriously injured and survive those injuries, however you cannot survive death. Generally the criteria is read as "serious bodily harm or worse" though sometime is shows up as "the threat of death or serious bodily harm". Either one gets the message across and my only reason for pointing this out is that one is not taking a wise choice in the matter if they are willing to wait until it is clear to them that their death is imminent. Better to err on the side that serious bodily harm is imminent. That way you may have a better chance to survive and go home.

The thing with pepper spray, or similar agents, is that you don't know what may follow and happen to you and/or your loved ones. It someone is intent upon rendering you effectively defensive, God knows what else they may want to do to you. Remember, even a hard punch to the side of one's face that crushes his cheek bone, damages an eye socket, and cuts open his face is grounds for shooting his attacker.

Not meant to mince words but rather to offer a different/better perspective.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seeker_two

·
Registered
Joined
·
89 Posts
Discussion Starter #48
OP Here - Wow. Lot of discussion and as a bit expected the "all depends" seems to be the answer.

I did look at my state statute. The term "deadly weapon" does not include.....pepper spray or mace.

Now, the interesting thing is that they also DO NOT consider a knife with a blade 6" or less as a deadly weapon. To me this is rather strange because I suspect that if you're rushed, close quarters, with someone with a knife of 6", you could certainly be justified if at risk of death or grievous bodily harm to use your firearm, despite their knife not being considered a "deadly weapon".

Reading further, it is clear it doesn't matter what the tool is, if it is an attempt to murder or cause great bodily harm of you or others, you are justified. Makes no distinction that you must be attacked with a "deadly weapon".

So my guess is that the deadly weapon definition is probably just for purposes of whether a tool or device falls under rules regulating concealed carry.

All Depends on the Situation seems to be the answer regarding pepper spray. Ha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34,692 Posts
IMO, the use of a pepper spray is a preclude to a forcible felony, an attempt to make one defenseless. Under FL law, deadly force is allowable to prevent a forcible felony.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Well,if we follow Dr. Fauci's advice and wear goggles, that would help prevent this situation from escalating to that point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
I understand nobody is a lawyer here. But I realized today that I have no idea if someone pulls pepper spray or bear spray on me, would this be a justifiable self-defense scenario? Deadly or grievous bodily harm and all that?

On the surface I would say no. If I know it is pepper spray and they point it at me, no. If they point it at me and spray me, I still kinda lean no I could not use deadly force in self-defense.

I know you can't "what if" yourself into scenarios you have to go by each moment... but I'll ask anyway.... you get pepper sprayed, you're disabled, you can't see, you've been assaulted by the person with the pepper spray. At this point you can no longer see if they have another weapon (gun / knife) or know if they intend further grievous bodily harm? Still no? Since you can't see any longer, you'd have to wait until being shot at or stabbed before it would be justified?

Are there any court decisions, or laws in various states that say pepper / bear spray is or is not deadly force or grievous bodily harm and whether self-defense if justified?

Seems like kinda a gray area I'd like to know more about. Also realized that I'm surprised that in my CC courses that this has never come up as a scenario discussed.
Just as OldVet states, what's next...? But unless you are able to prove the would-be assailant meant further harm (physically, or significant property loss), I would do my best to avoid the situation. No one here needs be reminded of the pro-criminal stances many liberal officials are taking these days, so it would be very close to a lose-lose situation. But if yourself, or someone you are defending, has significant underlying health issues that Pepper/Bear Spray could fatally compromise... Well, the concept of fear of grievous bodily harm should be the underlying defense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,555 Posts
"...But unless you are able to prove the would-be assailant meant further harm (physically, or significant property loss), I would do my best to avoid the situation..."
Just a couple of nuances on your post. First, if someone pepper sprays you out of the blue, they are not a "would-be assailant," they are an assailant. Second, you don't have to prove the assailant meant further harm, only that they put you in reasonable fear of further harm. (In most states). Those are critical distinctions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
These days it would depend upon the personal beliefs of the politician wearing the black robe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Interesting question and as everyone has said, depends on the jurisdiction and totality of circumstances. Being sprayed is an aggressive move, what comes next, I think that there are many scenarios where one could make the very reasonable argument that one was in fear of your life and so responded accordingly.

That being said, especially in todays political climate, I think there is a second question to be asked. Knowing how a person responds physically to being sprayed, coughing, mucus, eyes watering, vision effected - even if you took and made the shot what is the likelihood of losing your carry permit or facing some form of investigation / charges based on the fact that you shot while physically incapacitated. Take it a step further, take that shot after being sprayed and miss, hit an innocent person.

Not suggesting that anyone should simply turn the other cheek to being sprayed - just suggesting that there is even more to consider and discuss.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,262 Posts
Hmmm. I wonder if you’ve ever had the pleasure of a blast of cs or pepper fully in your face. You get hit in your eyes, nose and mouth, you ain’t putting knuckles on anybody, other than the ground. You will be f*•ked.

It has nothing to do with your personal bravery or toughness, it is mammalian physiology, which means your eyes clamp shut, your nose stops passing air and your mouth, tongue and throat constrict. All you can try to do is breath.

The above start dumping tears, snot and phlegm in ridiculous debilitating amounts. The icing on the cake is the pain. Blinding, crushing pain. Your knees buckle. You swoon, bob, lose your balance and geospatial awareness. You are are blind.

Without aid, you may recover between ten and thirty minutes.

So, big guy, what happens to you in the moments following? A kick to your crotch? More spray? Blunt force trauma from a small rock? Worse?

If you think I’m exaggerating in the slightest, go to Walgreens or Dunham’s and get the low end consumer kind of pepper spray. You know, the one with a key chain in a pretty pink cylinder about the size of a role of quarters? Go into the parking lot, turn the nozzle to where the nozzle is looking you in the eye and press down...

Over the last 25 years in LE, I agree OC spray works very well. I have been sprayed numerous times in training but I have also been contaminated by other officers during altercations. It hurts me bad but I have seen a few that can still put up a heck of a fight, this was with a direct hit to their eyes. I just mention this because a lot people hit with OC do not just immediately go down. Sometimes it takes a few seconds for it to take full effect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
One big consideration, since you are carrying. Would you reasonably fear being disarmed? Having your weapon taken away from you and being killed with it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
In my opinion absolutely not. The law is clear - you can only respond with deadly force if deadly force is used against you. Pepper spray is not deadly. Not by a long shot. An easy way to judge when deadly force is necessary is only use it in a situation where your brain is screaming "Oh my God I'm about to die!" If you're not in a situation where death or GBH is imminent, don't shoot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34,692 Posts
In my opinion absolutely not. The law is clear - you can only respond with deadly force if deadly force is used against you. Pepper spray is not deadly. Not by a long shot. An easy way to judge when deadly force is necessary is only use it in a situation where your brain is screaming "Oh my God I'm about to die!" If you're not in a situation where death or GBH is imminent, don't shoot.
Really? Maybe in your state.

FL law says: "A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. "

Convince the 68-year-old elderly citizen that some assailant's attack with pepper spray is not a prelude to a full-on assault upon his or her life, regardless of quite possibly being initiation of a forcible felony. A prosecutor would have his work cut out for him to convince me it was a harmless attack.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pete63

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,555 Posts
I think there is a second question to be asked. Knowing how a person responds physically to being sprayed, coughing, mucus, eyes watering, vision effected - even if you took and made the shot what is the likelihood of losing your carry permit or facing some form of investigation / charges based on the fact that you shot while physically incapacitated. Take it a step further, take that shot after being sprayed and miss, hit an innocent person.
I agree that may be a factor. Here's the two ways I see it most likely to go down, though:
  1. I get attacked by someone with pepper spray, but they have not yet incapacitated me. I shoot to prevent incapacitation.
  2. I get incapacitated and they attacker follows up with physical contact. I don't need to be able to see or even breathe to do a contact shot and contact shots generally don't miss. Also, it is likely I will be on the ground, shooting upwards.
Also, I don't know what the laws are in your state, but in mine, the SD and carry permit rules say nothing about restrictions on shooting if you have been incapacitated by an attacker. The carry rules say you can't be under the influence of alcohol, but that's it. The standard for shooting is still "an imminent threat of grave bodily harm." By your hypothetical, one could argue that if you got hit in the head you should not be able to shoot in self defense. But that would make no sense,

Of course, you are always responsible for where your bullets go, so that is a factor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,147 Posts
Like CTR says, you can't respond to force with disproportionate force. If someone pulls a knife out and brandishes it, saying "Don't mess with me, I have a knife," you can't shoot them. If they are aiming to attack you, then you probably can. If somebody shoves you, slaps you in the face, no, you can't shoot them. But you could hit them with pepper spray if you felt you were being assaulted.

Pepper spray is understood to be a non-lethal weapon (that's why I carry it). And while it's possible that someone has died after being sprayed, I can't recall any instances of it. Doesn't mean it's never happened, but it does mean that a person using pepper spray has a reasonable assumption that it is a non-lethal act. In fact, if you only pull out your firearm after being pepper sprayed, chances are you'll be the one going to jail.
 
41 - 60 of 65 Posts
Top