I think we need to wait. Elmer Keith thought a big slug at 750 FPS worked, and it did. A 9 mm at 1100 FPS seems to work too. Will 1 round at 2000 FPS work.
Time will tell

TED

 

As a general rule lighter bullets tend to lose velocity faster resulting in shallower penetration than heavier slower bullets.

 

I believe it has less to do with performance and more to do with profit margin.

 

I am assuming they [lighter grain bullets] also do not fair as well when striking heavy bone and cartilage.

 

In that case the tend to fracture halting any further penetration.

 

Does massive velocity with less mass do as much damage to tissue as slower heavier projectiles? Is this theory a better choice for short barrel pistols?

How much does barrel length affect terminal ballistics?

A lighter projectile would yield more velocity and therefore more energy. Assuming you're looking to deliver more and not less energy to the bad guy, lighter is good...to a point. I wouldn't use any of the extreme light loads, just something toward the light side. I think a smaller grain projectile would be more at home in a shorter barrel in the interest of maintaining muzzle energy, however, you may have a pistol with an action that favors something heavier. Please bear in mind I don't know what exact caliber you have in mind with this post.

To answer your question about barrel length and ballistics you might want to look at this website: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Calibers/Cartridges

 

A lighter projectile would yield more velocity and therefore more energy. Assuming you're looking to deliver more and not less energy to the bad guy, lighter is good...to a point. I wouldn't use any of the extreme light loads, just something toward the light side. I think a smaller grain projectile would be more at home in a shorter barrel in the interest of maintaining muzzle energy, however, you may have a pistol with an action that favors something heavier. Please bear in mind I don't know what exact caliber you have in mind with this post.

To answer your question about barrel length and ballistics you might want to look at this website: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Calibers/Cartridges

I am purchasing the Charter Arms Pitbull in .40sw. I have lots and lots of .40sw ammo for my M&P's and wanted to continue that in a revolver. I had read a few articles that favored .40sw out of very short barrels when compared to several other popular calibers and even to a .357mag out of a snubby.

The .40sw seems to not be a bad choice in any pistol, not that I knew that when I first purchased my M&P, but it has not left me regretting it or feeling under powered in any way [coming from .45acp previously].

 

Well since neither one of us can speak for an article which is not front of us let's put that aside for now to keep me less confused

Your concern about expansion would be another tick in the direction of a smaller grain bullet. Generally, more velocity helps ensure expansion from what (little) I know.

Sorry. Didn't mean to confuse. My real debate, with myself, was with the velocities vs. mass. I simply wanted to make sure my choice of revolver would be adequate using the .40sw ammo I already have on hand or with other copper jacketed lead choices. I didn't want to lose so much muzzle velocity that my hollow points wouldn't do their job.

If the newer tech offerings work then I would be gaining several hundred FPS out of a short snubby to better ensure expansion, but I also didn't want to lose energy from lesser weight bullets to the point of ineffectiveness against an assailant.

For the moment I plan to purchase some slightly lighter weight hollow point .40sw for the revolver. Maybe something in the 165 flavor. Maybe do some unofficial water jug tests with two different weights of defense ammo out of the Pitbull.

 

Well, those copper bullets seem to do OK in the gel tests that I've seen. They kill deer like crazy out of my Ithaca deerslayer from my experience.

If you can afford the copper stuff and it hits close enough to POA out of your handgun then I see no problem.

 

The copper stuff I have seen locally is more expensive but when bought solely for self defense I wouldn't "not" make the purchase due to cost. You get 20 rounds for about twice the cost of 50 target style rounds.

However, Federal HST is the best bang for buck I believe. I get 50 round boxes for about $35.00.

 

You're saying there's an ammo (with the same grain) that will give you several hundred (at least 300?) fps more out of a 2" barrel? The all copper ones? I could see that out of a longer test barrel maybe but gaining that much out of a 2" barrel seems hard to believe.

Ohhhh no. No where near the same grain. The projectiles I am talking about are very light, under 90 grains (Ruger ARX stuff). The Colt stuff, solid copper, is lighter but not as light as the ARX.

I would go with something like 165-155 grain HSTs.

That is my plan for now.

 

In Lucky Gunner testing from a short barrel pistol, Barnes Tac-XP 140 gr. 40 performed well:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

The snub revolver will produce less velocity, decreasing likelihood of expansion.

 

As always, I would buy a box or two at most....do some of your own experimentation, then decide. We are not all mad scientists...so we have to see it first.

 

The problem is that you are stuck in the formula. It exponentially favors velocity (at the muzzle). We need to look at how bullets behave in living tissue. Heavier for caliber bullets simply maintain more momentum through the target. Lighter is not better "to a point". Lighter is only better if your pistol cycles it better. Even then, 124 gr. 9mm, is the lightest you need in that caliber. In .40, there should be no reliability issue with the 180gr. It's not that the 155gr. is ineffective, it's that the 180 will penetrate more reliably; especially from a short barrel.

At any rate, the lead free copper stuff is overpriced hype caused by the enviro nazis. Or is good for hunting dangerous game.

 

Again, please show me the math where 155grain .40s&w is penetrating "unreliably" from a 2" barrel within 10m. You're suggesting to forego muzzle energy to get more "reliable" penetration where no penetration problem exists.

According to Lucky Gunner 155gr Federal Hydra Shok was averaging 18.4" of penetration in ballistics gel out of a 3.42" barrel. 180gr Federal Hydra Shok averaged 16.4". So in this guys test shots he actually got more penetration out of the lighter 155grain Hydra Shok than the 180 grain counterpart. (He also got a bit more expansion and a higher muzzle velocity from 155grain hydrashok)

Then Federal 180gr HST averaged 18.5" and 155gr averaged 17.2". I can't see any penetration problems. I know it's not the same as a 2" barrel but it's a good idea. So really, if any of these rounds penetrated much more, they would be overpenetrating according to the FBI standard. I know it's not flesh and bone but until you can produce some cadaver or animal flesh tests that say otherwise it's the best we got.

Do you not want the penetration in order to deliver energy to the vital organs after all? But then you say muzzle energy doesn't matter.

I know that muzzle energy doesn't equal the energy at target but it is related to it. You're never going to get the energy to increase en route - it will only decrease - so why not start with the most practical?

Good discussion guys but unless someone wants to produce sources or data to substantiate why I'm wrong then I'm done with this thread. I've supplied data and sources to backup my opinions and all I get back are more unsubstantiated opinions. Cheers.

 

I like the idea of heavy and fast. Then you don't have make compromises.

10mm:180 gr @ 1300 fps
460 Rowland: 230 gr @ 1330 fps
35 Whelen: 225 gr at 2700 fps

 

But can you hide any of those three in a back pocket?? :image035:

 

I guess the term "defensive carry" is relative. I am more worried about hungry bears, mountain lions, wolves, or pissed off moose.
PS I left out a 357 mag revolver and 44 mag lever action

 

In 600+ years of firearms history, lead bullets have been the nearly universal choice of projectile for a reason. They work better than anything else, short of depleted uranium or other exotic metals.

If you believe lighter is better, how about a one-grain Styrofoam bullet? Oughtta be good for about a bazillion fps. :hand5:

 

To repeat myself again, I said lighter is better to a point. But if it makes you feel better to burn down a straw man argument, don't let me stop you.

The reading comprehension on this entire bulletin board is questionable.

If you believe heavier is better how about bazillion grain bowling ball bullet (lol eats his boogers)

 

I think of the copper projectiles more as shrapnel which was designed to wound and is not necessarily fatal. Heavier lead/copper jacketed projectiles were designed to penetrate as one unit causing a higher probability to be fatal. Your money, your choice! I am going to stick with a bonded HP projectile from a major manufacturer that is commonly used by various law enforcement agencies. Just my .02 worth. :smile:

 

The heaviest you can find for your gun. IMO the heavy one do more damage than the light one just because they plow on. They're made to go slow so it's better for the shorties.

For my G29 I got Underwood 200 XTP (1250 fps). Like theotherside says, heavy and fast baby.

 

I carry these light and fast bullets, 50 grain 9mm +P rated at 2000fps. Gel penetration is adequate, but barely. However, it fragments explosively and creates a big mess when it hits a fluid target. Against a solid target, the speed is enough to defeat level IIIA armor, otherwise capable of stopping .44 magnum bullets.

The FBI protocol calls for 12" penetration because they want the bullet to reach a vital organ even if it enters the bad guy from the side. Liberty bullets are less likely to do this, as they explode within an inch of entry. However, the violent fragmentation would almost blow the arm off, leading to massive bleeding (not your regular neat little bullet hole bleeding). If it hits the torso, it's wide fragmentation pattern is more forgiving in terms of shot placement. If you get your bullet within an inch of the heart, a fragment will hit it.

At 2000 fps it is capable of causing hydrostatic shock, which is a nice bonus.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

 

If you research how body armor works, it is easy to see what body armor is good at. A .44 slug is wider and slower. Small and fast projectiles slice through body armor. It might stop a .44, but it won't stop a knife.

A brief search on this very forum will show you why Liberty is an overpriced gimmick. They are solving a problem invented by anti-gun media.

 

I don't get it, are you implying that armor penetration ability is bad? If it's true that a knife can go through a solid IIIA armor used in the video, then it's potentially fatal too.

I have watched every liberty civil defense ballistic test on youtube, in clear gelatin, ballistic gelatin, and water jugs. The performance is there, as well as the hydrostatic shock effect. The only downside is that penetration can fall short of 12", which I'm willing to accept as a trade off for the wide fragmentation effect.

At roughly $1 per round for 9mm, it's about the same price as most other self defense ammo out there, unless you buy online bulk. My Federal HST 124 grain 9mm +p is $1.25 each at the local store. It's not overpriced.

 

Let’s use an analogy here.

We’ll take a 2500 pound Honda Fit and 5000 pound Ford pick-up against a crack house.

Now accelerate the Honda Fit to 90MPH (if it will go that fast) and the Ford pick-up to 70MPH and aim both at the crack house.

Now when they both impact which will go further into or through the crack house???

 

...Now accelerate the Honda Fit to 90MPH (if it will go that fast)...

I once owned a 2011 Honda Fit - I once got that baby up to 110 mph. Of course, that was without any passengers, nearly empty gas tank, and driving down hill with a tailwind.

 

here is an interesting video on copper hollow points to go with this discussion

 

Y'all must not hunt.

a. hydrostatic shock does no damage at handgun velocities. It starts north of 2,000fps (above the velocities mentioned by the OP)
b. gel is not varying density bone and muscle. It is a constant to base a scientific comparison. Varying densities tend to cause deflection and stop fragmentation.
c. e=m v^2 overly emphasizes muzzle velocity and only accounts for energy at the muzzle. It is far more important to measure reliable penetration through the target, since this is where the fight is coming from.

All of this velocity talk became popular in the '80's where JHP would not reliably expand at low velocities. Manufacturers were also trying to overcome the shortcomings of the 9mm. Modern JHP expand consistently at a wide variety of velocities. They are simply amazing little pieces of engineering that we take for granted.
Sold copper defensive ammo is lawyer and enviro nazi marketing. Go ahead and hand over your money. I work too hard for mine.

 

Apparently everyone here seems to be right to some degree. I found this article that talks about bullet power vs velocity. It says a bullet that moves too fast can have more power but if it tranfers the power to the target to fast it won't penetrate as far. I guess it depends on caliber and velocity. https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlik...ainlikeimfive/comments/4bropx/eli5_if_the_muzzle_energy_of_a_bullet_is_12_m_v2/

 

This article largely discusses rifle ballistics. Things change above the 2,100fps (at the target) neighborhood. Yaw, fragmentation, and yes, hydro-static shock begin to become relevant wound factors. These solid copper handgun rounds just don't get fast enough.

 

bad juju

 

At least I can articulate my points in English and not resort to personal attacks.



I cite numbers from the internet and suddenly I'm an Internet Ninja...(and coming from a guy w/ 2800 posts on a gun bulletin board, thats rich)I say something you don't agree with even though I cite my internet numbers and then you say well that's not the target or hunting or real life. (BTW, not talking about hunting talking about defensive gun use) I apologize that I don't have my own personal test facility with chronos, cadavers and realistic targets for you to accept my points but I think I'll be able to live with that. Anyway, I'm not here to change minds. I'm here to learn. When is the last time you learned something new?



Sadly, most people on this thread don't have the capacity to absorb that.

read the first line, then the last line. Laugh at the irony. Then everyone knock it off. Also, going back after starting an argument and editing out your posts is very bad forum ju ju. Just saying.

 

Simple solid lead 32 and 38 were dropping bad guys and stopping aggression for decades and decades and decades until the internet and an eager consumer arose to demand "new and better", resulting in "experts" eager to cast aspersions on those that would dare to stray from the new rules of engagement. When there is a void, it will be filled. And the internet has facilitated a willing and eager market that demands discussion on the most microscopic minutia of anything about anything that can possibly be dissected and discussed.

Put a 32, a 38, a 380, a 9mm, a 40, a 45 on a vital and bad things happen. Miss a vital with any of them and you get examples like the guy shot by cop 5 times with .357 and shoot cop back with 22....guy walks away with relatively minor injuries, cops dies because .22 hit vital (Note to internet: I'm not making claims on the .22 caliber). We have a preoccupation, almost a compulsion, with minutia because the vehicle is here to discuses the complexities of things that really are not that complex to start with.

A lot of guys are dead, and even more aggression stopped, from what the internetery would now claim to be woefully insufficient and borderline irresponsible for use in self defense. Go faster and lighter if you want, or slower and heavier. Whichever suits your fancy. There is a large data set on both suggesting either will likely suit the intended purpose.