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Is it enough?

4.4K views 53 replies 15 participants last post by  Tangle  
#1 ·
What is the goal behind the training and practice in the use of the handgun in defense of our person or other?

It would seem one of our goals, if not the main goal, should be that we are able to deliver rounds on threat in the shortest period of time once we determine that is in fact necessary.
The training we seek from anyone, is probably to be as proficient in drawing from concealed, or from a duty holster [likely if we are LE], and using various skills to stop the potential lethal threat to us in the shortest time.

Many factors come into play to be able to deliver rounds accurately enough [we’ll discuss this later], and with sufficient speed, to keep from being killed or maimed by others with the handgun we choose to carry.

The mission statement of the handgun involves a few things here. One is that a handgun allows us to carry a tool that’s sufficient to accomplish our goal from any given distance whether that be from bad breath to well beyond it’s normal parameters. That it also has enough power to persuade an aggressor to stop their actions against us by causing them enough physical harm or perhaps by just seeing we have that capability before they fully act out an aggression against us to begin with.

Being an inanimate object, the handgun does our bidding by our own personal abilities with that tool. It can’t act on it’s own, it needs our mental and physical intervention [input] in it’s use to allow it to perform adequately. What is adequate takes so many forms through as many variables, that it is now up to us and our direct input with that tool to solve the problem at hand.

It’s not enough to just be able to make use of the tools inherent accuracy or it’s particular attributes to be accurate in doing so. If it were, bull’s-eye shooters would be the best at defending themselves. It’s also not enough to just be able to rapidly fire our handguns either. We need to couple the guns inherently accurate attributes with quick shots [working the trigger mechanism] in concert with each other. But are those two criteria enough in and of themselves? We all know they aren’t, there are elements that still need to be brought into play here which require further skills.

Handhold/gripping of the weapon would have to be considered an important aspect. One handed or two, there are a few variations that seem to be the mainstay in today’s training. One that’s been made very popular and riding a wave of interest in the last decade is the two handed “high thumbs” grip developed and used almost exclusively by the masters
and their followers of the various competitions. The other the thumbs locked down two handed hold which has been around for decades and which I was trained in some 25 years ago now.

No matter which two handed grip/hold you use, if you can keep rapid fire recoil controlled adequately, either will work and trainers should not attempt to force a shooter to change from using either unless of the two mentioned unless there’s an obvious problem with the shooters present recoil management.

After recoil management we would probably expect trigger control to be next in important. Trigger control is likely related in some way to our “recoil management” of the grip/hold on the weapon. Trigger control should be isolated from the handhold as much as it can be, and based on the shooters physical attributes [length of fingers, size of ones hand] it can become apparent that the various grips/holds they are using might need to be changed to allow for a more uniform and repeatable trigger pull.

We have seen many shooters who do not practice enough with their one handed shooting as they do their two handed shooting. There are probably several contributing factors in why shooters tend to practice/work the handgun one handed less than two handed. One of the biggest reasons may be the square range practice most have been accustomed to in the past at both public and private ranges. Many have more interested in the past in what their “groups of shots” look like [how small they can make them] than how fast they can shoot or being cognizant of their need for increased recoil management as their speed increases, not to mention their understanding of the need for increased management of both recoil and trigger speed.

Another reason is likely that they don’t see the same results [the same groupings of their shots] on the targets when shooting one handed due to recoil being harder to control with one hand than two as well as not being to isolate the trigger finger and fire as rapidly with the one hand. Though the reasons can be explained here for the deterioration of speed and accuracy [a combination of recoil management and trigger control], through practice and proper training, shooting one handed can be brought to the same level of proficiency as their two handed shooting skills through guidance in these matters by someone who understands what’s needed here, and more importantly perhaps the methods that can be incorporated to achieve the same success using one hand as they enjoy while using a two handed hold.

The goal of anyone who is interested in self defense with a pistol is to master the above so that it becomes a subconscious and reflexive act to bring all the skills necessary to “run the gun” optimally in the physical sense so we may then move forward to concentrate on the mental aspects of defending ourselves in a dynamic environ under stress as is created when our very lives are in imminent danger from various outside stimuli as we move about in our normal daily activities.

Once we have the above physical skills of “running the gun” ingrained into muscle memory and we are comfortable enough in those skills, we can then move into the higher order of making use of the various techniques [those that become separate skills later through repetitions and practice as they are themselves ingrained into our subconscious] that can be optimally applied as necessary based on their individual strengths in any given situation.

As a person who trains others in various skills [techniques], I have a responsibility to ensure my students are at the subconscious level of “running the gun” physically, to a particular level of proficiency, which allows them to react and ultimately use the skills/techniques they may need to know and to call upon one day to defend themselves in the most expeditious and efficient manner and to a successful conclusion where they survive a threat to their very existence.

Is this enough in and of itself, to be at the level necessary to run the gun physically at the subconscious level, having all the various skills/techniques we can train into the student individually, or is there an even higher order that can follow. Is it enough to give the students, say 20 separate techniques that they can then purportedly call upon under crisis?

It’s certainly advantageous to have as many skills/techniques as possible to call upon. The more we have of these at our disposal the more we can call upon almost instantly when the need arises. Is it as far as we can take the students or ourselves?

Is it enough?

Brownie
 
#2 ·
No, its not. Read your own signature line, Azqkr.

It more of a mental game, the mental preparation, ability to deliver the acts we train for, and what everyone always forgets; the aftermath.
 
#3 ·
:scratchchin:

Good, very good sir.

There's a lot more to follow in the near future, this is just the first of a few posts that will follow up on these initial thoughts.

Brownie
 
#4 ·
Very good read! I need to re-read a few times because some of it has sparked interest in my own ways of practice and reaction.

I agree with SIXTO also. We can all practice daily and build great muscle memory and the skills we need to do what we have to do to protect ourselves and loved ones, but we need to work on our mental aspect of it as well.

Am I ready to take someones life if my life is in danger? Am I ready for what comes after taking a life? When will I pull the trigger?

There are so many questions that we need to ask ourselves daily to prepare our minds for what may happen some day.

all of the above is in my opinion of course.:smile:
 
#5 ·
Good solid stuff :smilez:

For the majority of us here I suspect - who have at very least undergone some degree of ''regular'' training, the pre-requisite to follow that, is to practice every darned thing we can think of.

Even then it may never be the ubiquitous ''enough'' but the more versatile we can become the better our chances - as we may have to adapt in a heart beat to the strangest of circumstances, should the day come we fire in defence of self.

This must include ambidextrous shooting, shooting from retention and also embody many varieties of movement - both while shooting and with the view to gain hard cover.

The whole gamut is about as broad as one's imagination wishes to make it. :wink:

I am still totally taken up too with SouthNarc's ''task fixation'' theme - until I really gave that thought deeply I had not considered just how important (nay, critical) it just might be.
 
#9 ·
I Agree...

Good solid stuff :smilez:
For the majority of us here I suspect - who have at very least undergone some degree of ''regular'' training, the pre-requisite to follow that, is to practice every darned thing we can think of.

The whole gamut is about as broad as one's imagination wishes to make it. :wink:
Knowledge and exposure is very important, but if you have become accustomed to 34 different techniques...and in the heat of battle you needed #35...what do you do?

With a whole bunch of potential scenarios out there, I say...

Be exposed to as much as possble, practice around things that feel comfortable to you...then practice some more...then practice some more...

Being a generalist of 40 techniques is not the same...

as being an expert with just a few of... don't have to think about it, in the dark, eyes closed, muscle memory movements. If you can do it very well...you'll do it well when you don't have time to think about it.

When you don't have time to think...what will you do?

ret
 
#6 ·
What is the goal behind the training and practice in the use of the handgun in defense of our person or other?
This may not be quite what you intended to talk about, but I think the ultimate goal of all personal defense training is to keep ourselves and others safe from harm in the face of potential criminal violence. Gunplay is one of the techniques we have to do this, but it should also be the most rarely used. Alertness, avoidance and discouraging criminals from selecting us for victimization should come into play before it becomes a deadly force situation. In some circumstances, other techniques like verbal challenges or non-lethal force may be appropriate.

Knowing how to shoot effectively is important because it is the last resort. Once we get to that point there's really nothing left to fall back on. If we screw it up, we or some innocent third party could end up dead. We need to be as good as we possibly can, but we should do everything possible to avoid it.

Is it enough to give the students, say 20 separate techniques that they can then purportedly call upon under crisis?

It’s certainly advantageous to have as many skills/techniques as possible to call upon. The more we have of these at our disposal the more we can call upon almost instantly when the need arises. Is it as far as we can take the students or ourselves?

Is it enough?
I think it may be too much!

I don't know how long of a training period you're talking about, but when you mention 20 techniques, it makes me a little nervous. I am still an beginner at this and I've only taken one relatively short training course. It was a good course, with a great instructor, but if there was a flaw, it was that I didn't feel like I got a chance to practice some of the techniques enough to feel comfortable with them (particularly shooting around cover and low-light shooting, which I can't really just go to the range and practice). Until I get a chance for some more training in these areas, neither low light shooting nor shooting around cover is going to come naturally to me in a combat situation.

I think it would be much better to give students a deep understanding of a few techniques, rather than a shallow understanding of many. It takes a lot of practice to be able to perform these techniques unconsciously under stress. The stats I've seen for muscle memory vary, but they generally involve thousands of repetitions at a minimum. Too many techniques means that each of them gets less practice. In addition, you will have to consciously choose between them in a combat situation, rather than just defaulting to the technique you were taught. Too many choices can be paralyzing!

From a beginners perspective, even though I want to learn as much as possible, it seems to be best to concentrate on depth first (becoming really good at a small number of fundamental skills), rather than breadth (being a jack-of-all techniques but master of none).

That said, I agree with you about the need to practice off-hand and one-handed shooting (I try to incorporate these into both my dry-fire and range practice).
 
#8 ·
Shooting skills and age

Handgun shooting skills deteriorate with age, even with practice.

I know that at 65, I was more skillful with all firearms, and at 55, 45, etc.

Today at 75, my firearms skills are limited.

What has not been lost is my ability to be deselected. My O skills, my use of OODA. My senses still work.

These skills take practice--at least as much practice as gun skills, and require constant use, and may be far more important.
 
#10 ·
I've got a one on one training schedule this week for the next 5 days. I'll get back to this subject and where I'm going with it in a few days after that.

I have some ideas roughed out and I'm going to test the ideas and theorems I have put together, with this student as the test subject, at the end of his weeks training.

I'll get back to everyone then. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to others comments and thoughts of what I'm talking about in my original post here.

Brownie
 
#11 ·
Practice makes perfect, right? Nope, practice makes permanent. You have a gun strapped to your hip...you're ahead by 20%...the rest of the 80% depends on you and how you train physically and mentally. I will say that the subject of training can be ran into the ground, to the point where one might get overwhelmed. Train on the basics until it becomes permanent, then some formal type of training like force on force would be helpful. Still, when the adrealine goes through you, it still may not be enough.
 
#12 ·
ret--that is the reason I harp on OODA.

When the event is in progress is not the time to decide 'door A or B or C or?'

These decisions have to be premade, or you will use up extremely valued time to decide. Being ready means knowing your action/response in advance based on his/their action/s.

A simple example is person approaching you asking 'do you have the time? Answer is no, and you do not stop moving! Is this the response/action of the normal courteous person? No it is not, so it must me practiced.

John Farnam has a crackerjack about 2 hour lecture on 'being deselected'. Several other instructors do a good job with this subject too. A good NRA 'Refuse to be a Victim' instructor will present similar material.
 
#13 ·
What I have found is people have no idea what true violence is like and at the moment of truth they lock up. At some point training has to address this and teach the student how to work through it. The techniques that are taught to student need to be simple and above all…effective in the manner they are used and advanced techniques need to build from the simple ones.
 
#14 ·
Yup, what 7677 said. Mental prep is just as imporetant as the physical.

Also, remember no matter how good you think you are, there is always someone better. Its my job to make sure they are not smarter.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Yup, what 7677 said. Mental prep is just as imporetant as the physical.

Also, remember no matter how good you think you are, there is always someone better. Its my job to make sure they are not smarter.
"Know and use all capabilities in your airplane.
If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your @$$."
Dave "Preacher" Pace - Fighter Pilot

AMEN BROTHER....AMEN!
 
#15 ·
What is the goal behind the training and practice in the use of the handgun in defense of our person or other?
For me: I refuse to be a victim. I realize that the system isn't out there to be my own personal protective detail, nor can it be expected to work that way, given time and distance (when calling for help). I have a responsibility to protect me, my family ... our lives; not anybody else. The goal is to have a choice at hand. The goal is to equalize the disparity of being "behind the curve" as a defender against an attack. Practice gives you blisters. Training builds up callouses and ability to withstand pain, deprivation, severe exertion. Training helps to focus the mind on the set of actions, skills and tools that need to come together in order to withstand an attack.
 
#17 ·
part 2

Part 2

I don’t believe it is enough as a trainer. I believe it is just the beginning in our journey to be able to “run the gun”. Certainly the basics already covered have to be ingrained into the memory and muscles used and with sufficient practice usually will be. Practicing with a hand held firearm enough eventually instills the confidence to use it proficiently where the use of sights is concerned.

There is more than meets the eye, literally, to shooting, at least where it concerns what we humans are really capable of physically. The eyes learn to “read” the picture we see when the sights are aligned, or the front sight is properly placed onto a target/threat. The mind remembers what the eyes become familiar with to obtain the results of rounds where we want them to go. The mind also becomes familiar with the physical skills and various positions we can obtain to affect certain results as well. This physical memory is called proprioception. We learn mentally to verify visually, and our bodies learn proprioceptively where we need to be physically in order to accomplish any given task.

Through innumerable repetitions we develop an awareness of where our bodies arms, hands, fingers will need to be proprioceptively to accomplish some task. Where the gun is on our waist without looking at it, what our hands and fingers need to do to acquire the grip of the pistol through familiarity of these tasks. We naturally do not have to look at or “see” the gun on our waist to know where it sits, how it needs to be grasped. Our fingers have been grasping for things, clenching objects since just after we were born, and perhaps before we were born.

Our hands and fingers can determine the amount of gripping strength needed to secure an object so we don’t drop it based on the resistance felt automatically , can determine the angle of the grip as it sits in some holster, and retrieve it from that position all without ever consciously having to think about it. It just happens, we have that ability naturally through the proprioceptors that have been developed in our shoulders, arms, hands and fingers since birth working in conjunction with the mental capacity to think an action and have our body move to accomplish that action without conscious thought.

Where this comes into play is important in understanding how to use this natural ability to our best advantage where we want to become the best we can be without conscious thought of the “how to” which tends to overcomplicate many physical actions such as drawing and firing a handgun.

Where this over complication process makes itself apparent as a trainer takes many forms. The simple act of the drawing of the firearm from it’s resting place in a holster is a prime example here. I’ve had students in classes who have been professionally trained in a 4 count draw stroke to the point their mind and body fight the natural instinct to just draw the firearm in one fluid movement. Where their natural ability has been replaced with some convoluted and over complicated set of instructions, based on what they have been trained to do both mentally and physically, moving away from the simple task itself, in the “how to” to properly draw the gun.

If I ask a student to draw a handgun from a holster, they are quite capable of doing so without any instruction on my part, even though in some cases, they have never drawn a handgun from a holster before. If I ask them to perform this task without input, they do not draw into some 4 count draw stroke instinctively. They move their hand to the gun, grasp the grip and remove it from the holster. They don’t have to look at the gun in the holster to do so even on their first attempt at this. Their proprioceptive abilities take over, they know through the physical weight of the firearm on their waist where the gun is. Their shoulder, arm, hand and fingers can “find” the gun without any conscious thought from the very first draw.

The first attempts may be somewhat slower than in subsequent draws, but they needed no intervention, direction or input to accomplish the task asked of them. Here is where a trainer can then develop that draw stroke further. Lets look at this act of drawing further here.

We need to get the gun into play from it’s resting place before it can be used, whether in defense of our person or just plinking on the range. If I were to ask the student to draw his firearm 10,000 times without any intervention, without the student having any previously conceived notion of how to do so properly, when that student came back to me I would likely see he had figured out how to smooth out that function naturally for the most part. If we then tasked the student to practice the drawing of the firearm with the intention and specific goal of becoming faster at the task at the same time, the student would have figured out the best way to do so for himself based on his unique body structure, with his natural physical abilities including any real disabilities or injuries that may have to be physically worked through in his or her own particular set of circumstances which may preclude their being as fast as they normally might be.

It’s pretty obvious the student would not have come back to the instructor with a 4 count draw stroke on his own. The 4 count draw stroke is not naturally going to be where people get to left to figure out the fastest way to accomplish that task. Their proprioceptive ability would have given them instant feedback to what was required to produce a faster presentation of the firearm from their holster. It’s here that an instructor can now further work with the student making any minor corrections to gain some smaller amounts of speed in that draw stroke and perhaps smooth it up further, therby gaining some more speed.

As the first physical skill to defend with a handgun that’s carried holstered is the drawing of said weapon, it’s important to have the ability to draw that firearm with as much speed as possible. Most of us carry a firearm with a defensive mindset. We will be reacting to some visual stimuli that gives us enough information to draw in defense of our person or that of others around us lawfully. As such, we are usually going to be behind the curve here. It would seem to make sense that anything that slowed our actions in the draw would be detrimental at a time when we can’t afford to be any slower than we want to be.

Has anyone had to be shown or trained how to extend their arm to handshake with another? I think that would be very unlikely. Would you naturally use a 4 count or even a 3 count handshake?. Again, that would be very unlikely as well. What we see when someone handshakes is that no matter where their hand is when the task is required, they move with fluidity of motion to extend the hand. The shortest distance from where they are to where they want to be with the hand usually comes naturally to everyone and is not based on some linear movement, but based on their proprioceptive ability to know where the hand is in time and space relative themselves and the other person, and naturally move it to another space still relative to their position in relation to the other party, all without having to look at the hand.

People have been trained away from this natural ability for decades it seems to me. They’ve been brought to a place quite often where they believe they need to train some task in a certain manner that actually has hindered their ability to be as smooth and fast as they could be naturally. It’s a task that can be daunting for another instructor to correct dependant on how much that person has trained in the overcomplicated and away from their natural abilities. Recently, two students who were well trained and versed in their 4 count draw stroke were out here for training. They were brought back, with some effort on my part, to a place where they can use their natural abilities again. Retrained to use an ability they had all along but had been taken away from them by previous instructors.

Helping people be as fast as they physically can be in their draw stroke is just part of their training, but even with this,

Is it enough?
 
#18 ·
It is enough? Nope, not by a long shot.

6777 touched upon something - real, street level violence has to be experienced to be understood. It ain't at all like the movies. FOF training is manditory in order to be adequately trained.

However, prior to FOF, basic skills must be mastered. Your posts go into great detail regarding the intricate details necessary to good shooting skill. I applaude that.

However, there are several key ingredients that are still missing:

Mindset - much more emphasis is necessary in this area of training.

Students must be taught to shoot weak handed, and the proper use of a BUG. Clearing of malfunctions is KEY. Racking a slide one-handed, reloading one-handed, etc.

Situational awareness (touched upon by others) and TACTICS! Cover, Cover, Cover !! A highly necessary real world skill that is horribly mis-taught by so many instructors. You should stand about 6 feet BEHIND your cover, if at all possible - not use it as a pistol rest as many "experts" teach.

Tachy-Psychia - dealing with the physiological changes that occur in combat. Dealing with the resultant loss of fine motor skills, and the big killer: Tunnel Vision!

And , there are volumes of legal issues that a person must be able to deal with. Everyhing from equipment selection to training, how to deal with police/media/prosecutors after the fact. Dealing with the psychology of post shooting trauma and the tendency to talk way too much and build the prosecutors case for him/her.

However, I have a sneaking suspicion that you are about to get into all of that ?

Good thread. Very informative and thought provoking.
 
#19 ·
All this is fine, and commonly taught at the better shooting schools. The real problem is not that trainers don't know how or what to teach, the problem is that gun owners as a whole are unwilling to train, period.

Just today a friend asked me to help his girlfriend learn to shoot so she could qualify for her CCW permit. She'll do what it takes to qualify and probably whine about that.

I think the fast draw is way over stated. There may be some, but I don't know of any, civilian instances where a fast draw determined the outcome of a gunfight. D.R. Middlebrooks, owner of Tactical Shooting Academy, said, "The first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun - IN YOUR HAND." He's right.

I just recently read that LEO trainers are moving toward de-emphsizing the fast draw training and emphasizing getting hits from a ready position. Their reasoning is that if the officer is in a fast draw situation, it's probably too late to matter. If the officer has his gun out because he anticipates the need for it, he's much better off.

In home defense, the civie is very unlikely to be in a "draw-down" with an intruder, a shoot-out maybe, but if I need my gun in my home, it should be in my hand, not in my holster - again, the D.R. axiom, ""The first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun - IN YOUR HAND." I think he should add, "The first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun - IN YOUR HAND not in your holster."

In a video that was posted on GT, it showed a civie that had to shoot a BG in a hotel lobby. The GG's gun was holstered, and he did not fast draw it, he tactically drew his gun and prevailed.

If a fast draw is everything it is purported to be then we would have to recommend that every one carry in an OWB Kydex holster at the 3:00 position because that's about as fast as it gets. Moreover, civies carry concealed, LEO carry in triple retention holsters - neither support fast draws. Simply a cover garment slows down the draw considerably. There goes the fast draw.

Sources estimate that guns are used some 2 million times a year to defend lives. They say that in well into the 90 percentile, a shot is not fired. For the times that shots are fired, I hear nothing about a fast draw determining the outcome.

It just seems to me that a fast draw should be way down on the list of important skills. Having said that, I do have a fast draw. I learned it as a five step draw and with perfect practice, it took a natural course into a smooth, non-stepped draw just like I was told it would.

However, I now rarely practice fast draws, instead I've gone to tactical draws. The difference is in my tactical draw, the gun takes a specific path and is at a slightly reduced speed to maximize control of the gun and minimize wasted motion. It's fast, but it isn't. When I'm being timed I use a fast draw stroke; it's not tactical, the gun takes a different path, and I get the hit although the risks increase, but hey it's a shooting school, so what. I'm not gonna do that if my life depends on it, I'm gonna draw tactically.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Gary;
Good thought process, and yes, there is more to follow, of course.

Thats why it was left open ended in the last sentence as before.

Tangle,

The draw is as important as any other aspect of SD with a handgun, no more or less, but at least as important. There are times when just producing the firearm from concealed with enough speed [ and ready to use it ] may end the altercation, and the times it doesn't, the speed will benefit you in defending yourself.

Of course a gun in the hand beats any draw, but we don't walk around with a gun in our hand normally. It needs to be drawn from concealed, and I don't believe anyone practices their drawstroke to be slower for the times it may have to be presented.

People like Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryce, Ed McGivern et al all had their drawstroke practiced to great speeds of presentation of same for a reason. They didn't have a gun in their hand all the time, but they could certainly get it into that hand and make use of it in the blink of an eye, which saved bacon on more than one ocassion. These are just a few examples, there would of course, be many more throughout the ages.

Imagine how Jordan or Bryce would answer your comment that the speed of draw was way down on the list of importance. Real world gunfighters, who survived many a shootout, for many reasons, one of which would have been their draw speeds.

Brownie
 
#22 ·
Yeah, and none of us can approach Jordan or Bryce's draw speed, and I seriously doubt that they routinely counted on out drawing a threat to end a gunfight.

And, you're right all we can do is 'imagine' what they might say about the importance of a fast draw. I think they would know that they were very exceptional and I seriously doubt they would claim that everyone should strive for a fast draw.

I'm very aware of their draw speeds, but for most of us, if we're counting on drawing and firing 0.1 sec before the BGs bullet(s) hit us, a fast draw really wasn't the best tactic was it?

The very fact that police departments opt for triple security holsters indicates that they are much more concerned about the LEOs gun being snatched from their holster than they are a fast draw. Whether that's bureaucracy, or not is almost unimportant, because as a result the officers are learning to assess better, use better tactics, and have their gun out if there's any doubt, rather than depending on a fast draw.

So in that setting a fast draw certainly is not equally important as other aspects as you claim. Then among civies, few are set up for fast draws but they can do reliable tactical draws which are surer and more effective. I've seen numerous examples of people trying to fast draw and sling their guns into the ground 10 feet in front of them, fire prematurally, and much more commonly, simply miss their desired target.

Most of us are average, we're not going to put the time and effort in to perfecting or maximizing a fast draw, and even if we did, we'd soon get out of practice and digress back to a lower skill level.

I'd much rather see emphasis on a slightly reduced speed, but much more reliable, tactical draw, with emphasis entirely on reliability, repeatability, and shot placement, and do away with timed draws.

I'd much rather see training time focus on threat awareness and avoidance than a fast draw. I'd much rather see the time spent on enhanced tactics rather than a fast draw. The fast draw thing is a niche skill and there seems to be a lot of niche based training going on these days.

Let's take an example, I'm faced with a BG about to shoot me. My gun is holstered, his is drawn. What do I do? Draw? A fast draw is not the best solution to this problem. E.g. I'm sure not gonna stand there and hope I can put one in him before he puts one in me.

I've come to see the fast draw as a last ditch, everything else has failed, hope for the best tactic. It's kinda like retention shooting that allows one to stand toe-to-toe with a BG and shoot it out - pure useless.

I'm not saying a fast draw is not important, nor insignificant. I happen to be blessed with pretty fast hands which transfers to pretty fast draw speed. But I hardly ever practice drawing, well fast drawing. But a fast draw is pretty low on the list of importance. And, it's rarely needed and if it is, very few are gonna be able to maintain the skill level required to do a fast draw.
 
#23 ·
The very fact that police departments opt for triple security holsters indicates that they are much more concerned about the LEOs gun being snatched from their holster than they are a fast draw. Whether that's bureaucracy, or not is almost unimportant, because as a result the officers are learning to assess better, use better tactics, and have their gun out if there's any doubt, rather than depending on a fast draw.
I don't think we can really use the law enforcement as evidence of the importance, or lack thereof, of a fast draw for CCW holders. Two reasons: First, uniformed LEO's face a far higher risk of a gun grab than CCWers do. They carry their guns openly, out where anyone can see and start thinking about grabbing it. For CCW, concealed means concealed. The BG shouldn't see my gun until it's out of the holster and I'm ready to shoot him with it. Cops also have to regularly get in close proximity to BGs on a regular basis (wrestling someone to the ground, handcuffing them, taking on an unarmed assailant, etc.). I'm going to stay out of HtH with a BG if at all possible. So the risk of a gun grab is not nearly as great for a private citizen.

Second, LEOs generally have more leeway in drawing their weapons than CCW holders do. Unless I want to get hit with a brandishing charge, I've got to have a clear reason for drawing my weapon that I can articulate to law enforcement or a court if need be. Police officers have a lot more leeway (not unlimited leeway, they can't draw on every person they interact with, but still more than we've got). If a cop feels the little hairs on the back of his neck standing up, he's going to get his gun out of the holster.

So, with a much higher risk of a gun grab, and being more likely to have the gun out of the holster before things go bad, LEOs have a very different set of tradeoffs between draw speed and security than CCW holders do. They're just not really comparable.

As far as the whole quick draw thing goes, I have to agree more with AzQkr on this. I think it is important. However, the 'BG holding a gun on me' is not really the circumstance where it would come into play. I'm certainly not going to try to outdraw someone who's already got his gun out and pointed at me. A more realistic situation where I'd need to draw quickly is something like the Tuller drill (a guy charging you with a knife). In that situation you have a time window to engage the target before he can actually start doing you harm, but it's very short, so you need to get the gun into action quickly. On the other hand, I agree with Tangle that speed is not the be-all end-all of the draw, reliability is definitely important as well. Frisbeeing my gun at the BG is not going to do anything to improve my situation.

One thing that nobody's mentioned so far, that I think is at least as important as draw speed and reliability, is incorporating movement into the draw. A faster draw is going to net you at most a couple of tenths of a second. Studies have shown that moving (even if it's just stepping a yard to one side) will consume one to three seconds of the BG's time while he reorients himself to your new position.

Tangle mentioned timed draws. I think that timing a skill is important even when speed is not the ultimate goal of the training. I've found that when I'm being timed, there's a lot more pressure than when they're being timed. Obviously it's nowhere near the pressure of an actual gunfight, but it is a good tool for getting people used to feeling that pressure in a training situation. Whether they've been trained for a fast draw or not, someone who fears for their life is going to feel quite a bit of pressure to get their weapon drawn quickly, so it seems like they ought to have some experience in training with that same sort of pressure.

Back to the 'BG has a gun on me' situation. In this case, I think some sort of 'subtle draw' is a lot more useful than a fast one. If the hotel video Tangle mentioned earlier is the one I'm thinking of, then it's a good example of what I'm talking about. The clerk with the glock stands so his strong side is behind the other clerk and uses her body to conceal his draw, then he steps out and engages the BG. Similarly, if someone is holding a gun in my face demanding my wallet, I'd put my strong side away from him and reach back like I'm going for my wallet and draw my pistol instead. Done right, I can have the pistol out of the holster before the BG knows what's I'm doing. However, I've never read or heard of any formal training on this. Obviously, circumstances are going to dictate whether, and how, you can conceal your draw. However, it seems like the concept, along with a few examples of how to conceal your draw, would be a good addition to any training curriculum.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Failure to identify a threat is the biggest killer of LEOs and what I believe is not sufficiently taught or emphasized enough. The fact is the quicker the threat is identified the more options one has available.

I believe in a fast but smooth draw. I have found with concealment jackets, shirts, etc. that speed draws are not going to happen. With that said, one should practice their draw and work on speed. However, smoothness should not be given up for pure speed as to much speed causes the student to become jerky and over shoot the intended target and/or not get a firm/proper grip of the gun during the draw. Fast jerky draws cause shooters to spend more time correcting for over shooting the target then the time a person would spend with a smooth fast draw.

When we speak of a fast draw, what are we talking about…EU/ED (1/2 Hip or Hip shooting), or drawing to full extension? I believe in the use of economy of motion to make up time and within certain distances, it is very effective method. I use the following drill at every class to emphasize the economy of motion over pure speed, at five yards, I take the slowest person in class and have them use EU/ED against the fastest person shooting when they reach full extension and EU/ED has always won.

I teach the steps of the draw even though the student doesn’t know it. The first step of the draw is grip and depending on the holster it maybe different. A level III retention holster requires the shooter to get a solid grip in order to deactivated the retention devices where as a holster w/o any can be scooped out. The next step is ½ hip or EU/ED position. I teach the ½ position and I have to student draw and fire from this position and then I move on to the ¾ hip and Point Shoulder positions. I then do the same positions with two-handed shooting too and the student learns the draw stroke with out the need to number it.

The problem I have with teaching the draw stroke by the numbers is the shot was always fired at step 4. Where as, I want my students to be comfortable firing from any step of the draw and the relationship between distance to the target and how far to extend the gun. Full extension is not a good thing at one yard where as ½ hip doesn’t work well at fifteen yards. This draw stroke also takes into account distance and the necessity of making using point shooting and/or aimed shots. The system incorporates both aiming systems into one.

After the student has learned the stationary draw stoke it is time to move on to drawing and moving and how to move and draw.
 
#25 ·
And, you're right all we can do is 'imagine' what they might say about the importance of a fast draw. I think they would know that they were very exceptional and I seriously doubt they would claim that everyone should strive for a fast draw.

Exceptions or not, they knew the importance of the speed of their draw in potentially surviving the events they were involved in, and would certainly adhere to practicing to be as fast on the drawstroke as one could possibly be.

But a fast draw is pretty low on the list of importance. And, it's rarely needed and if it is, very few are gonna be able to maintain the skill level required to do a fast draw.

The fast draw would be the fastest/speediest way you, in your place and time could get the gun from the holster to shots on threat when needed. As such, the draw speed one attains is very important, whether the time they need to draw is faster than the exceptions of Jordan and Bryce or not.

Getting the gun in play when it is needed as fast as possible can take the form of any scenario we care to imagine. We can't start our defensive actions of firing on them until it has been accomplished. The reduction in time of your drawstroke speed is at least as important to understand and train for as being able to get rds on threat with immediacy as 7677 mentions using various skills dependant on distance to the threat and the economy of motion that can put rds on threat the quickest.

I don't know anyone who consciously trains to be slower at any skills where defense with a firearm is concerned. As such, the drawstroke is at least as important as any other form of defense used with a firearm at least some of the time.

If one may need a skill at any time, one should practice to be as fast as they can be, within their personal physical limitations, in preparation for that event.

I've seen numerous examples of people trying to fast draw and sling their guns into the ground 10 feet in front of them, fire prematurally, and much more commonly, simply miss their desired target.

Which only means they need more training and practice in these skills, not that they are to be ignored or lessened in their importance.

Brownie
 
#26 ·
A smooth draw is important, but as far as a self defense skill I would put it low on the totum pole.
Awareness would be #1 and having the gun in hand beats any fast draw skill.
Having the gun in hand does not necessairly mean having it in the open.
I have many times drawn a gun from the holster into a concealed position ( behind the thigh, placed in a pocket, etc) without the bad guy even knowing that I was armed and ready.
I am afraid that the fast "presentation" is another one of those MT/competition skills that fall into the catagory of nice to know but not very important in the real world.
 
#28 ·
+1 I agree with the above comments whole-heartedly. It seems to me that the fast draw thing is emphasized and out of proportion to reality.

Gents,

I would be very interested in knowing how fast you can draw, fire, and get a solid hit, so we can see what you mean by fast.

As for the Tueller drill, it demonstrates that a fast draw is not the answer. The purpose of the Tueller drill is to demonstrate that you can not draw fast enough to defeat the assailent.

How about that Matthew, we actually agree on something for a change.
 
#27 ·
Matt,

A smooth draw is important, but as far as a self defense skill I would put it low on the totum pole.

From "Shooting to Live" with the one hand gun

"We must consider the essential points which emerge from our analysis. They appear to be three in number, and we should set them out in the following order:-

1. Extreme speed, both in drawing and firing.
2. Instinctive, as opposed to deliberate aim.
3. Practice under the circumstances which approximate as nearly as possible to actual fighting conditions."


Fairbairn and Sykes set out essential points in order of importance in that book. Extreme speed, both in drawing and firing was #1 from their analysis and in their opinion.

Brownie
 
#30 ·
I'm very aware of their draw speeds, but for most of us, if we're counting on drawing and firing 0.1 sec before the BGs bullet(s) hit us, a fast draw really wasn't the best tactic was it?

1/10 of 1 second? I'll take that when the chips are down. In fact, I'll take 2/10's or 3/10's of a second and any amount of time I can save/gain in a drawstroke anytime I can get it.

If the hits are there reliably with that time savings, it's a good thing and one that increases the odds on my favor of surviving an encounter.

Splits from shot to shot for a good shooter are likely in the .20 to .26 range. That would mean if I saved 2/10's of a second, the second bullet is on it's way by the time they might get a first round off to begin with.

Is the drawstroke speed important? Yes it is. Is it more important or less important than other variables we can pracitce for prior to having to use them? No, it is equally as important, and therfore something one should strive for in their training.

Brownie
 
#31 ·
0.1 second is not an edge, it's a false sense of security. Numerous studies indicate average incapaciation from gunshots take between 10 to 15 seconds. I can see how it would be an eye openning experience to be trading shots with a BG, and just before you die you moan, but I shot him 0.1 seconds before he shot me, I had the advantage.

Matthew,
Those are good times, it would be interesting to see if the average person could, in general, achieve that proficiency. I have come to realize that draw and fire speed depends very much on the individual. Some people are simply "fast movers", some aren't.

I was timed at Blackwater five times last May, keep in mind as I say this, I'm 61 years old, rarely practice fast draws, but I do very occassionally practice a few moderate, smooth draws.

I was carrying a Beretta 92FS in a Blackhawk Kydex holster. We were shooting at the A zone at 21 feet. I fired each shot from an extended two hand position, using a flash sight picture. My hands were relaxed down by my sides, i.e. not gripping the gun. All five shots were good, solid hits in the A zone, and my fastest time was 0.98 seconds. The other four hovered right at the 1.00 second mark. I'm a bit faster with a G-19. We didn't do any times with the hand already gripping the gun.

It was interesting that I was essentially surrounded by younger guys and one in particular was an IDPA gamer point shooter who practiced draw and fires - I think he was surprised I could beat him using a flash sight picture. In fact, my slowest time was faster than anyone elses best time.

However, I'm convinced that the hand movement to the gun and establishing the grip would add about 0.1 second to the draw time. IF that is true, and I won't know for sure until I time some draws with my hand on the gun, then that means I should be able to draw, fully extend into a two hand grip, and fire using a flash sight picture, in 0.88 seconds.

I'm not sure what all this means, but I think it strongly suggests that speed doesn't necessarily come from speed. Recall that I rarely do fast draws, they can be a might tricky, ESPECIALLY if you start with your hands at your side or in the gamer's 'surrender' position.

However, I must defend the surrender position where the hands are right about shoulder height and about a foot in front of the shoulders. This is a surprisingly fast position to draw from, as far as starting without the hand on the gun. In a self-defense situation, this same position is excellent to excute blocks, manuever, and manipulate the attacker to gain distance and time. Plus, witnesses will see you in a 'surrender', "I'm not looking for trouble." position rather than mistaking you as the aggressor. The position is also advantageous to sweeping away a cover garment as opposed to starting with your hands at your side. The surrender position may also give the false impression to your assailent that he has you under control and he may just relax a little.

No doubt firing from a pocket, without actually drawing the gun is faster than any kind of draw. However, we have already seen two experiences where carrying a revolver in a pocket resulted in a malfunctions. And sure, if I had the option of firing without drawing, at close range, and there was absolutely no other possible solution, i.e. HTH was not possible, no cover to go to, no time to draw, no room to move, then shooting from a pocket would be my first, and apparently only choice. But, the chances of all that happening - I doubt it. Plus, if that is the case, I'm standing right in front of an attacker exchanging bullets with him - not good.

At such close ranges, neither has to be a particularly good shot.