[AzQkr]

2:09, he's muzzling his left foot while reholstering IWB

 

[AzQkr]

The main crux of this thread was a discussion on how people constantly muzzle themselves while reholstering. Not just novices, but we see some fairly well heeled shooters all over the net muzzling their body part to some degree when reholstering. The nature of iwb holsters, appendix iwb holsters and yes, even my custom owb leather holsters means when reholstering, it's nearly impossible [ due to their design ] NOT to muzzle some body part at least a little.

Now, at least a little is just as unsafe as muzzling oneself more than just a little. Muzzling a body part on rehostering happens, to what degree one muzzles themselves is irrelevant to the discussion. The only relevancy to the discussion is that people muzzle themselves far more often than not using most holsters designed for concealed carry [ barring competition holsters that sit far away from the body and are worn at 3 or 9 O clock ].

I could put up hundreds of these examples a day just off you tube vids, but the majority already agree that it's nearly impossible to not muzzle yourself while reholstering, so the point has been well made to those who don't agree with the consensus of the majority of carriers here who've weighed in simply by these forms of examples of some well heeled trainers/shooters doing just that while re-holstering.

Thus my contention in this and other threads that trigger finger discipline is far more important than not pointing the muzzle at a body part, at least to some extent.

 

[Holmes375]

I muzzle myself regularly when training. I try to keep it to a minimum - meaning the depth of my body being muzzled - and I'm always looking for ways to improve. I'm not a newcomer to hand weapons having military and law enforcement experience. My primary emphasis is on the trigger and its relationship to my trigger finger. I'm quite ambidextrous and train both sides as I sometimes have an "arthritis day" in my strong hand. Interestingly, from videos I've had made of my sessions, I seem to muzzle myself more from my strong side than my off side.

This whole "absolutely never muzzle yourself under any circumstances" simply strikes me as unrealistic. Minimize the issue and know your fingers and triggers.

 

[bigger hammer]

Earlier AzQkr wrote,

I've not had an ND reholstering since 1971

And I replied,

That sure looks as if you are saying that you've had AT LEAST one ND before 1971

The underlined is simply a statement of fact, no more or less. There is no assumption attached to it.

Sure there is. I also wrote this,

It' the identical sentence structure as in "The alcoholic said, 'I've not had a drink since 1971.' " It's understood that before 1971, he had at least one drink.

Now it looks as if you're claiming that my thinking that you DID have an ND before 1971 was only an assumption on my part. Turns out it was due to your weak sentence construction. An appropriate way to say this is "I've been carrying a gun since 1971 and have never had an ND." That way your meaning is clear. Sorry to be the grammar police, but of this, are misunderstandings bred.

In fact, that's the year I started carrying a holstered handgun. Nuff said on that matter. :rofl:

Not sure why you think it's funny that your weak sentence construction lead to thinking that you'd had an ND, but here we are.

When you first made this statement I wrote this,

Good grief folks, if there was any doubt as to what advice or videos you should be paying attention to, this should have removed it! AzQkr admits that what he considers to be the MOST IMPORTANT safety rule FAILED HIM COMPLETELY and resulted in a ND while he was holstering. He does not mention any injuries that he sustained as a result of this ND so I think it's reasonable to assume that he was using correct muzzle discipline. Oddly the part of the safe gun handling equation that I've been emphasizing.

I'm wondering why it is that when this statement first came out you failed to write ANY response? Seems obvious that if you had never had an ND, as you now allege, that you'd have quickly said so, rather than waiting for many other posts to appear. This just sounds highly suspicious.

Besides anything else, earlier you wrote, "I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you any further than to clarify this one. I never stated I had an ND while holstering."

And yet here you are doing it again!

 

[bigger hammer]

1:39, ooops!!!!!!! Muzzling himself while reholstering.
1:44, ooops!!!!!!! Muzzling himself even while drawing.

I see the first but not the second. Here's 1:44 on the video.

Those IWB's whether strong side or appendix are going to be violating a safety rule most of the time.

NONSENSE! There's no reason to accept this. Making this statement tells me that you've just given up. Safe holstering is EASY, if you know how to train it. If you don't, statements like this one are issued.

I mentioned in this or another thread recently that I'd carried iwb, and custom made best stuff from top makers that had me muzzling myself strong side EVERY time I reholstered simply because of the design of the holster.

Oddly I've bene carrying IWB since 1975. NEVER has a violation of this safety rule been due to "the design of the holster." ANYTIME it's happened it's been because I was sloppy in my technique. Interesting that ONE of us takes responsibility for his own actions, instead of blaming others. But this is not unusual for this day and age. When I started carrying, I hadn't been trained properly and I probably swept myself regularly. Then I took some lessons from a superb instructor who showed me the right way. I've not swept myself since.

Without proper trigger finger discipline, the bottom of an IWB strong side holster will allow the reholster to have a the muzzle pointed at a portion of your butt cheek.

This is factually WRONG on its face. This may occur with poor technique or what is commonly known as an FBI cant, where the muzzle of the holster points to the rear to varying degrees. If one is carrying strong side IWB with a neutral (aka 0 cant, where the gun is carried vertically) it's not pointed anywhere near a "butt cheek."

The further it's worn behind 3 or 9 O clock, the more you muzzle your butt cheek.

To be ACCURATE this should read, "The further it's worn behind 3 or 9 O clock, the more [THERE IS A CHANCE THAT]you [MIGHT]muzzle your butt cheek." If a given holster does point at a butt cheek, many holster manufacturers make a foam pad that can be attached to the holster, to prevent this. There's no reason for this to happen either. Just more generalities.

 

[bigger hammer]

Its easy to get caught in a speed Loop when shooting against the shot timer.

Very true. It's one of the excuses that AzQkr makes several times in his argument. One only needs to realize that there's no connection between drawing quickly and holstering quickly. They are two separate and distinct movements. There are PLENTY of reasons to be fast on the draw. There are NO reasons to be fast while holstering.

I know for awhile I was reholstering to fast because I was so intent on shaving time off my scores and moving fast.

Yep. That's the trap that many fall into while working on speed.

I fixed it by going to Low ready "Every" time after I shot my rounds and scanning with my head. I'd stand there in the basement dry firing just to drill that into my muscle memory.

Good job in recognizing it and then finding a fix. Would that everyone would do this.

 

[bigger hammer]

.44 seconds, hickock muzzles his leg while reholstering

I disagree. Here's a screen grab at 0.44

 

[bigger hammer]

Taking great pains NOT to muzzle himself, he is ever so slightly doing so at 1:32 IWB carry. One can plainly see the muzzle is inboard of the back of the slide, thereby slightly muzzling the groin. Ouch,

Yep. He's not watching the gun, instead as with virtually everyone that you show and you as well, it's clear that HE'S NOT LOOKING at the gun while putting it into the holster. He's operating by feel. It just takes a few degrees to transform a safe condition into an unsafe one. It would BE EASY for him to simply watch where he's pointing the gun and change it. In this case, all he has to do is to put his right thumb in contact with his chest, keeping the muzzle where it is, changing only slightly where it's pointed, and then slide the gun down, into the holster. He could further ensure this by taking a step backwards with his right leg, thereby moving his junk even further out of the way.

But it's not hard to do it right. ONCE AGAIN, Here's the video that heymarv put up showing not only HOW TO holster while wearing an AIWB holster, but he fires Simunitions several times as he's going into the holster to prove that he's not sweeping himself.

 

[bigger hammer]

Instructor zero, muzzling himself at 13:16. If not his groin a little bit, certainly his feet.

Yep, he's a bit of a kook. This is no exception.

 

[bigger hammer]

2:09, he's muzzling his left foot while reholstering IWB

Perhaps and perhaps not. You're guessing based on what little you can see. His feet aren't shown, heck he's cut off at the upper thigh. But in any case, it's EASILY prevented by bringing the gun in from further out, that is pointing it at the ground well in front of the shooter's feet, centering it on the holster and then bringing it in, so that the feet aren't swept.

 

[bigger hammer]

The main crux of this thread was a discussion on how people constantly muzzle themselves while reholstering.

This entire thread was a to distract attention from another conversation that was taking place on this forum. You had a student in a video that was shown sweeping his leg every time that he was shown holstering, and instead of simply admitting his safety violation, you brushed it off with the statement "I do that myself on occasion, it happens." For reasons known only to you, you placed yourself where it was impossible to see what your students were doing as they fired, holstered, reloaded, and otherwise manipulated their guns. Your "excuse" for this was that this was not a formal instructing session, it was just (to the effect of) a 'get together of like minded shooters.' Except that you were running the show. You put up the targets, you gave the instructions for the courses of fire and you WERE seen in the video to be either giving instruction or exchanging baking recipes, we're still not sure which it was.

Not just novices, but we see some fairly well heeled shooters all over the net muzzling their body part to some degree when reholstering.

Yep that's the nature of the Internet. I think that YouTube was created, at least in part, so that fools could show us just how stupid they are. (NOT aiming this comment at anyone here, it's just a general statement). Many of them have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Except for the millions of 'cute kittens playing with boxes' videos that exist there seems to be no end to the various forms of 'gotcha videos' showing thousands of people committing missteps, some intentional, some accidental.

The nature of iwb holsters, appendix iwb holsters and yes, even my custom owb leather holsters means when reholstering, it's nearly impossible [ due to their design ] NOT to muzzle some body part at least a little.

NONSENSE. YOU ADMIT by the use of the phrase, "nearly impossible," that IT IS POSSIBLE "NOT to muzzle some body part at least a little." Not only is it possible but in our classes, it's unheard of. We recognize that holstering is one of the most dangerous parts of working with a firearm. When teaching holster work, and when working with more experienced or advanced students, until we have seen them perform multiple draws and holstering operations, we have our students come to low ready at the end of the exercise. We then approach them on their gun side, standing just behind the line, look to make sure that their trigger finger is on the slide, tap them on the shoulder, call their name, and then give them the command to holster. We make sure that they are looking at the gun as they do and we monitor where it's pointed and ensure that their trigger finger remains outside the trigger guard, on the slide (until it's blocked by the holster) until the gun is in the holster. We've run thousands of students through various classes and have never had an ND while doing it this way.

With new students we do about 50 draws and holsterings with blue guns before going live. And we follow the same protocol when they holster.

Now, at least a little is just as unsafe as muzzling oneself more than just a little. Muzzling a body part on rehostering happens

It ONLY happens if people aren't paying close attention to what they're doing, and are not looking the gun into the holster, paying close attention to what the muzzle is sweeping. It's not compulsory, as you pretend.

to what degree one muzzles themselves is irrelevant to the discussion.

At last. Common ground. The only difference is the degree of lethality.

The only relevancy to the discussion is that people muzzle themselves far more often than not

MORE NONSENSE. Pay attention, observe the most important safety rule, muzzle discipline, and it NEVER happens. I'd tend to say that this may be the case with YOUR STUDENTS, due to your emphasis on trigger discipline, than muzzle discipline, but it's not the case with ours.

I could put up hundreds of these examples a day just off you tube vids,

Yes you could. People might actually believe it. But just as it's possible, for example, to ride a motorcycle and NOT rear end vehicles on every ride, it's possible NOT to muzzle oneself while holstering. AND it's easy, AND it ensures that if the ND occurs, it's just an "Aw poop" moment rather than a tragedy, where someone is pumping their life's blood onto the dirt. With your system, relying primarily on trigger finger discipline, when that ND happens, since you've not placed the priority where it belongs, on where the gun is pointed, there's a good chance that you'll have a tragedy. When it does, I pray that your student is not in a remote area, as in the video that this thread spun off from, because they might not make it to the ER.

but the majority already agree that it's nearly impossible to not muzzle yourself while reholstering

They do? I've not seen any meaningful polls that support this statement. Where do you come by this opinion that you state as fact?

so the point has been well made to those who don't agree with the consensus of the majority of carriers here who've weighed in simply by these forms of examples of some well heeled trainers/shooters doing just that while re-holstering.

Even a spelling bee champion occasionally misspells a word. Even an eagle occasionally misses the rabbit. Even a world champion Steel Challenge competitor sometimes has an ND. And similarly, even the finest firearms trainers sometimes screw the pooch. That's doesn't mean that the average shooter (whatever that means) is OK to do it, as you've been arguing. No matter the skill level, an ND that finds flesh hurts and can kill. FAAAAAAAR better to simply learn to holster properly. It's far easier than you pretend and merely involves something that virtually NONE of your experts is doing, looking the gun into the holster, and paying attention to where it's pointed.

Thus my contention in this and other threads that trigger finger discipline is far more important than not pointing the muzzle at a body part, at least to some extent.

LOVE the qualifier, "at least to some extent" ROFL. Once more, there's a reason that every safety group that I've cited puts muzzle discipline ABOVE trigger finger discipline in their list of safety rules. They do so, because it's much more important.

 

[bigger hammer]

I muzzle myself regularly when training. I try to keep it to a minimum - meaning the depth of my body being muzzled - and I'm always looking for ways to improve. I'm not a newcomer to hand weapons having military and law enforcement experience. My primary emphasis is on the trigger and its relationship to my trigger finger.

I think that you'd be wise if you'd reconsider your priorities. Let's review what we know about fine motor skills v. gross motor skills. In low or non–stress situations both work well. These include such times as at the range or dry firing on the living room. HOWEVER, in high stress situations, fine motor skills, such as where you place your trigger finger, degrade to various degrees, sometimes to extreme levels. But in most cases, gross motor skills remain intact. So for the overwhelming majority of your shooting life, you'll do fine relying on fine motor skills to keep you safe. But in a stress situation it might not do so. And that is when the gross motor skills, which control where the muzzle of your gun is pointed, will not be affected to the same degree. So if you've spent your training time relying that the gross motor skills to keep you safe, they won't be degraded when you find yourself in that stress situation.

This forum is devoted to and named for the defense use of firearms. Not for bullseye shooting, not for IPSC competition and not for any other sport. It's devoted to serious situations where your life and perhaps that of your family members, might be in danger. So I'll ask a very simple question. Do you think that you should be training for the WORST CASE SCENARIO or for a low stress situation?

This whole "absolutely never muzzle yourself under any circumstances" simply strikes me as unrealistic.

EVERY individual and organization that has established firearms safety rules ,from the NRA to the US Marines, uses words like "never, always , and at all times." Are they "unrealistic?"

Auto safety organization say things like "NEVER" drive while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. "NEVER" text while driving. "NEVER" drive while you're drowsy or having trouble staying awake. Are those statements "unrealistic?"

I know that I haven't muzzled myself in decades because I've watched my gun go into the holster each and every time it's happened. It's a goal to aim at. It is achievable if someone wants to do it. Those who don't watch what's going, instead relying on "muscle memory" may do it far more often than they realize.

It's quite one thing for an individual to do it. Instructors should know better and should do better. AND they should ALWAYS watch what their students are doing, even if it's not a paid training session.

 

[gasmitty]

After 130 posts, this thread has ceased to enlighten and inform. Closed.