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GM, you touched on it before.. A great many people simply see "the gun" as a talisman to be worn and cast away all bad deeds. They cannot accept it any other way because of their [emotional] investment is that belief. They consider it unequivocally true simply because to them, it HAS to be. Then again, I dont expect to convince my detractors.. I am simply offering information to the unassigned carrier with an open mind about mode of carry.
Examples? I realize I may be the example lol, even though I've made no such claim.
 
Discussion starter · #222 ·
So, I'd like to know. How many of us OC'ers had their sidearm taken or were shot first last week?
I was killed 47 times last weekend.
 
Discussion starter · #223 ·
**Caution, deja vu all over again!**

It is my opinion that nobody is in the position to judge another mans "well thought out and educated decision" to carry concealed or openly, unless they have actually lived in the other mans shoes. So I am going to post this one again, so that it is clear exactly why I wrote this series of articles.

I want to reiterate this as the point of these series of articles.

They are not designed to say that open carry is a bad decision or that concealed carry is the only way to go. They were designed to move the open carry debate past being run and dominated by political activists that admittedly knew nothing about self defense and had no training in what they were screaming from the roof tops. As a self defense Instructor that was serious about my trade and craft, the perpetuation of this dangerous ignorance left me utterly disgusted by those that did not care enough about their followers to even do the smallest amount of study into the art of self defense with a firearm. It took years to get the political activist to stop screaming from the roof tops with the perpetuation of their undeniable and dangerous ignorance.

On the same token these articles were not designed to entice the closed mind "always conceal" people to jump in and demonstrate their ignorance on the reality of open carry in this country. There are many places around this country where open carry has been absolute acceptable for a very long time. There are also many places where open carry is the only option to legally carry a gun. There are also places where open carry simply makes good sense, even if it is not all that common.

The point of the articles is to point out that fact that if you carry a gun (open or concealed) you should know exactly what you are getting yourself into and what your responsibilities should be as an armed civilian. A few years back it was very common to see open carry people stating that they did not need any training, that retention was never going to be an issue, that there was no need to learn anything from Self Defense Instructors or from those that had a high level of training, knowledge, or experience because they were anti-American, anti-freedom, anti-Constitution, anti-rights, and anti-open carry. There was an amazing amount of disrespect given to those that only wanted to help out a brand new group of shooters and point out that they were making "life or death" decisions from a very low knowledge base..........the low knowledge base of the "political activist only" that could not or would not post their resume or qualification to teach people about self defense.

I have had many of my fellow Self Defense Instructors ask me why I waste my time trying to help those that have been so disrespectful and caustic. The answer to that is because a bunch of these guys were my friends and students. Just because a friend or student "does not know what he does not know" does not mean that they can not learn what they did not know. They say that common sense is not common. I disagree! I have found that when common sense is presented, it is very easy to recognize. So this debate is no different from a number of controversial debates that I have taken on in my career. If you can apply common sense to a controversial subjects, the world will change, just like it did with point shooting, dynamic movement, getting off of the X, low light gun fighting without flashlights, etc, etc.

"You do not know what you do not know" is not an insult! It is a reality for all of us. So when a person with a ton more knowledge, training, and experience takes the time to teach you about something that you do not know, take what is being given to you.........that is what I did and now I am one of the top Instructors in one of the top training organizations in the world.

I open carry!

I do it from a position of knowledge, skill, and experience. I know exactly what I am getting into and exactly what my responsibilities are.
 
You didn't answer the question and you are still assuming that I have no experience.

To clarify, you said

I would like to know how you know this to be a fact.
Sorry, not trying to avoid the question, but if you don't understand it, there is really no way I could explain it to you.

If you had any real experience at all, you would understand this. And that's not meant to be a put down or slight in any way.
But your responses and statements in this thread are a dead giveaway.
 
GM, you touched on it before.. A great many people simply see "the gun" as a talisman to be worn and cast away all bad deeds. They cannot accept it any other way because of their [emotional] investment is that belief. They consider it unequivocally true simply because to them, it HAS to be. Then again, I dont expect to convince my detractors.. I am simply offering information to the unassigned carrier with an open mind about mode of carry.
Maybe I'm understanding your point about OC better now. Are you equating OC with "talisman" when it comes to someone saying that they think OC'ing could possibly deter a crime? Has that been your argument this whole time? That it doesn't matter if crime is deterred or not, but it's about the "talisman" attitude of the person carrying?

Your post could be applied to both modes of carry just as easily, so I'm unsure if your post was about our discussions or unrelated to that.
 
I have had many of my fellow Self Defense Instructors ask me why I waste my time trying to help those that have been so disrespectful and caustic. The answer to that is because a bunch of these guys were my friends and students. Just because a friend or student "does not know what he does not know" does not mean that they can not learn what they did not know. They say that common sense is not common. I disagree! I have found that when common sense is presented, it is very easy to recognize. So this debate is no different from a number of controversial debates that I have taken on in my career. If you can apply common sense to a controversial subjects, the world will change, just like it did with point shooting, dynamic movement, getting off of the X, low light gun fighting without flashlights, etc, etc.
well said Sir..
 
Maybe I'm understanding your point about OC better now. Are you equating OC with "talisman" when it comes to someone saying that they think OC'ing could possibly deter a crime? Has that been your argument this whole time? That it doesn't matter if crime is deterred or not, but it's about the "talisman" attitude of the person carrying?

Your post could be applied to both modes of carry just as easily, so I'm unsure if your post was about our discussions or unrelated to that.

Sorry but [no] that is not what I am saying and.. [no] that has not been my argument the whole time.


As I have said many times, I concede that OC can likely deter [and has deterred] crime in a very specific and limited circumstances. Its when a person ignores intuitive logic , Socratic reasoning or common sense and replaces it with blind faith- that you begin to enter the Talisman paradigm. I have never said that OC cannot deter crime, I have merely stated that common logic dictates that the practice seems to foster more risk than CC in many varying circumstances. Varying as opposed to a controlled circumstance...varying as in the public at large in public places. I have laid out the argument in #176 and I dont want to rehash the point but when a person scoffs without a merited argument, I assume they are speaking from a position well grounded in the Talisman paradigm. That or they are simply an antagonist with a sharp stick.
 
Sorry but [no] that is not what I am saying and.. [no] that has not been my argument the whole time.


As I have said many times, I concede that OC can likely deter [and has deterred] crime in a very specific and limited circumstances. Its when a person ignores intuitive logic , Socratic reasoning or common sense and replaces it with blind faith- that you begin to enter the Talisman paradigm. I have never said that OC cannot deter crime, I have merely stated that common logic dictates that the practice seems to foster more risk than CC in many varying circumstances. Varying as opposed to a controlled circumstance...varying as in the public at large in public places. I have laid out the argument in #176 and I dont want to rehash the point but when a person scoffs without a merited argument, I assume they are speaking from a position well grounded in the Talisman paradigm. That or they are simply an antagonist with a sharp stick.
Do those last 2 sentences apply to me IYO?
 
Sweatnbullets (and other contributors to this thread),

Thank you for the articles. As a new resident of a 2A friendly state I am now in the application process of my CHL. I state that this is a process as I am looking for all of the information that I can find. In potentially many cases, I am ignorant... I have been shooting since I was 5, taken multiple gun safety courses and Hunting safety courses. Yet still there are many aspects of CC or even OC that I find the Ah Ha! moments hit me when reading common sense articles and other informative articles. I will continually strive to reduce this ignorance of what I do not know..

Here in Texas, we have a minimal class that we must take for CC and next month OC. I can see where there is a black hole of information that many permit holders should have filled. While most in my class were decently educated in firearms, there were a couple of persons that the thought of them carrying bothers me. They just didn't have the maturity to understand the potential circumstances they would find themselves in.

Regarding OC:

Having grown up in the big city, where the lines between good an BAD neighborhoods can be a street. Having interactions with true thugs and having experienced first hand aggravated assault by a BG, I would never open carry in a large metropolitan area. Do I believe a BG would target an OC'er in a town like Los Angeles (Forget that California is almost communist), absolutely. You would have to keep your head on a swivel there and have a large set of brass ones to keep your sidearm. Now move yourself out to a different part of this amazing country, where gun culture is more prevalent and then the whole argument changes (only somewhat). Walking with a gun on my side in East L.A. would only result in bad things for many involved, most likely with me being severely outnumbered.

Do I plan to OC? most likely very rarely. I will continue to learn and plan on taking in more training.

Keep the information coming.


Thank you

Walter
 
The problem we have is that some people say that OC is a crime preventative. Unfortunately this is unquantifiable as, if the crime was prevented before it started, how can we know? Similar to, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound.

I am sure that it prevents crime. I also mainly CC although once or twice a week I will OC if I can. I honestly believe if every CC person OC'd most of the time there would be less crime. I believe, but I cannot know. I'm for any method that gets more law abiding citizens armed though.
 
"If I want to open carry and I want to be the very best that I can be, I am going to wear my holster on my waistband, near my centerline. You can call it “cross draw” or “appendix” depending on the position that you use, but it has many advantages.

The number one advantage is that the gun is in front of you and you have better “security” over that gun. We have better security due to the gun being on the same side of your body as your eyes. The gun is also guarded by being in between your arms and inside of your power work space."

Really good advice. I have a hard time biting my tongue when I see someone OC from 3 to 9 o'clock (clockwise) standing in a line or sitting at a table or in a crowd. When I OC, which isn't often, it's usually appendix to 2 o'clock. When I CC I may carry at the 3 o'clock IWB and my elbow is on it whenever I'm around people. I have only heard of one instance where someone was targeted for their firearm, but I'm not willing to be the second.
 
"If I want to open carry and I want to be the very best that I can be, I am going to wear my holster on my waistband, near my centerline. You can call it “cross draw” or “appendix” depending on the position that you use, but it has many advantages.

The number one advantage is that the gun is in front of you and you have better “security” over that gun. We have better security due to the gun being on the same side of your body as your eyes. The gun is also guarded by being in between your arms and inside of your power work space."

Really good advice. I have a hard time biting my tongue when I see someone OC from 3 to 9 o'clock (clockwise) standing in a line or sitting at a table or in a crowd. When I OC, which isn't often, it's usually appendix to 2 o'clock. When I CC I may carry at the 3 o'clock IWB and my elbow is on it whenever I'm around people. I have only heard of one instance where someone was targeted for their firearm, but I'm not willing to be the second.
To each his own, I OC and CC in the same place. 3-330. Its how I train, I believe in KISS and no need to change things when it comes to my firearm. If someone wants to try and grab the firearm, let them. All my holsters carry a fwd cant and the firearms will not come out unless they are removed from the proper angle. They are all leather and do not come off the belt without it being removed. Had plenty of training with firearm retention.

Not sure an elbow rest is a solid defense for stopping someone from taking your pistol.
I don't understand why you would cc and then rest your elbow on the firearm. Not really hidden at that point.
 
"If I want to open carry and I want to be the very best that I can be, I am going to wear my holster on my waistband, near my centerline. You can call it “cross draw” or “appendix” depending on the position that you use, but it has many advantages.

The number one advantage is that the gun is in front of you and you have better “security” over that gun. We have better security due to the gun being on the same side of your body as your eyes. The gun is also guarded by being in between your arms and inside of your power work space."

Really good advice. I have a hard time biting my tongue when I see someone OC from 3 to 9 o'clock (clockwise) standing in a line or sitting at a table or in a crowd. When I OC, which isn't often, it's usually appendix to 2 o'clock. When I CC I may carry at the 3 o'clock IWB and my elbow is on it whenever I'm around people. I have only heard of one instance where someone was targeted for their firearm, but I'm not willing to be the second.
I like that. I OC, mainly crossdraw for the very same reasons you stated. I also OC AIWB, and I like that very much- for many of the same reasons.
 
To each his own, I OC and CC in the same place. 3-330. Its how I train, I believe in KISS and no need to change things when it comes to my firearm. If someone wants to try and grab the firearm, let them. All my holsters carry a fwd cant and the firearms will not come out unless they are removed from the proper angle. They are all leather and do not come off the belt without it being removed. Had plenty of training with firearm retention.

Not sure an elbow rest is a solid defense for stopping someone from taking your pistol.
I don't understand why you would cc and then rest your elbow on the firearm. Not really hidden at that point.
When I say, "my elbow on," I mean the inside of my elbow and not the LEO lean. Sorry for the confusion.

I wear leather, non mechanical retention as well. I respectfully disagree that a forward cant is anything, but the smallest amount protection from a weapon snatch, especially if your hands are full with an issue in front of you. Just my 2 copper pieces though, for what it's worth.
 
This topic always seem to focus narrowly on the gun grab. Yes, the gun grab is a potential risk but by comparison to the other more obvious OC perils, its probably last in line. Still, CC or OC, I agree that its a good idea to have a plan and a means to mitigate it.
 
This topic always seem to focus narrowly on the gun grab. Yes, the gun grab is a potential risk but by comparison to the other more obvious OC perils, its probably last in line. Still, CC or OC, I agree that its a good idea to have a plan and a means to mitigate it.
I don't mean just a random thug type gun grab (which as I recall hasn't often happened that I'm aware of). I mean more of an altercation that devolves into a tussle. It's much more difficult for the aggressor to remove from the front, where you are the strongest and easiest to defend, than from the side or back. My training experience, albeit more limited than many others, has shown me that anything past the 3 o'clock makes it extremely difficult to draw from the bottom. It also allows the aggressor to more easily reach your firearm if they are on the bottom and wrapping you up. I've never had this happen in a real life situation, hell I haven't gotten into a physical altercation since my military days, but it's happened in training with cadre that knew what they were doing and I didn't like it at all. As with everything, YMMV and you know your capabilities better than anyone else does.
 
All sorts of thing can go wrong when skydiving.. there are plenty of risks. Being stuck by a bird during free fall is not what I would consider to be at the top of the list of risks. That is the same way I see the gun grab. I am not trying to draw a literal equivalence.. I am just trying to highlight my point. As a Joe Citizen in public, I am not a proponent of OC and consider it to work against many tactical imperatives but I don't see the gun grab as the primary concern that is seems to be in these type threads.
 
All sorts of thing can go wrong when skydiving.. there are plenty of risks. Being stuck by a bird during free fall is not what I would consider to be at the top of the list of risks. That is the same way I see the gun grab. I am not trying to draw a literal equivalence.. I am just trying to highlight my point. As a Joe Citizen in public, I am not a proponent of OC and consider it to work against many tactical imperatives but I don't see the gun grab as the primary concern that is seems to be in these type threads.
Fizban, have you gone over your issues in this thread? I'd like to read them if you haven't. No argument, I just like seeing others perspectives.
 
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